Wikipedia Is Your Friend: Angels and Demons

[chasingtides]

Writers of SPN, where are you getting your fucking cracked out theology?

Besides the bit where angels can become human and fallen angels aren't actually fallen angels, I want to talk to you about Uriel. Now, I will first turn to the Bastion of All Knowledge, Wikipedia. Writers, meet Wikipedia. This is the piece of technology forbidden students for being unreliable. However, it is often a good jumping off point if you have no idea what you're talking about. According to his Wikipedia page, Uriel is one of the archangels. He is the fourth archangel. In certain magic traditions, he is called upon during the calling of the quarters as the heavenly representative of the south and fire. In Christian apocrypha, he helped to rescue Jesus and his family from King Herod. He is the angel of repentance. He hung out with Abraham and Jacob and was involved with the plagues of Egypt. Possibly most importantly to this episode, Uriel can enter into the Presence of God. Let's ponder that.

Now, if even Wikipedia can tell me this about Uriel, about how he is awesome (in the traditional sense of the word) and powerful and hung out and helped really important Biblical people like Abraham and Jacob and Jesus and he can enter in the Presence of God - why the flying fuck is he doing grunt work for Castiel - who doesn't even have his own Wikipedia page? I have to go to angelfire web pages to get information on Castiel. That's how much no one cares about him except on the show.

If you wanted another grunt angel, you could have made one up wholesale (hi, Alastair, Ruby, and Anna) or gone to one of the angelfire pages and picked one out - I like Qafsiel, angel of the moon. But don't pick up one of the four archangels and make him work for the angel of Thursday - that's just dumb. (I'll take this back if it turns out that Castiel is secretly Jesus and Anna is actually Anna of New Testament fame or girl!Jesus or Mary or something crazy. Then Uriel would totally work for them.)

Now, onto the demons:

Demons are kind of fun. I actually like Ruby this episode for the first time this season. Good acting. I'm bothered that her name is Ruby and is from medieval Europe because that's not really a decent medieval European name. And there are a lot of good ones that are still used today. (If you fear research, I would suggest that people check out Wikipedia's brother-in-arms, behindthename.com. I want to know what her game is. I really really do.

Alastair. I assume that he is supposed to be a demon in the traditional sense of the word - a fallen angel. He wasn't human, isn't human, and is paying the price for disobeyed God and, likely, turning to Lucifer. He exists for the pain and suffering of humanity. He wants Anna to suffer as he suffered for disobeying God. I want to see him more often.

I see what the show was trying to do here (the anvil clued me in). Neither angels nor demons are entirely good or bad. Ruby saves people. The angels want to kill people. Demons make bad choices, but angels don't have choices. I've read these comics, too, and honestly, they didn't need anvils. They also made liberal use of moral ambiguity that I really don't see coming here.

Don't get me wrong. I love the show. It's fun. I just feel that spending about an hour on Wikipedia could make everything flow a little better. Hell, when I wrote my The Sour for the Sweet, a fic with Grigori, and Tested by Fire, a fic with demonic Sam and Dean, I did as much. I suggest they start, at the very least, by putting down the Hellblazer and Lucifer and checking out The Hierarchy of Devils. They also might want to check out The Christian Hierarchy of Angels (hint: Castiel is an Angel, making him the lowest of the low).

(In my head, Alastair is secretly Carreau right now.)

Comments

[devidarkwolf.livejournal.com]

Some of your HTML didn't work properly, just to let you know!

I sure as hell want to know more about the angels and their whole hierarchy. But did they actually say Uriel has seen the face of God?

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the heads up. It should be fixed now.

[devidarkwolf.livejournal.com]

No problem.

I agree that the writing is rather heavy-handed when it tries to talk about "the issues." What's interesting to me is that the moral ambiguity sledgehammer has been used before. ...a lot. They've done this story a billion times, already. Ever since season two, with the vampires who aren't necessarily evil, we're kind of introduced to a world where "everything isn't what it seems." So then you get Gordon, the hunter who is supposed to be good but is actually recklessly brutal, etc. etc. So by season four, you'd think they'd have something else to talk about. However, I think there is still so much mystery surrounding the demons this season, and even more around the angels, who we apparently know nothing about. So hopefully, with time, the show can reveal a little more about both parties, and that maybe they're not exactly what we think they are.

...that may be asking for too much, but still.

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

I thought the real purpose of this episode was to put the presence of God in question again. Anna talk with Dean has set the brothers up to think of the Angels as no more than a different type of being. If only 4 have seen God then who is to say that the 4 are not running Heaven and God is Dead?

Zaz

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Then they need to stop writing Lucifer fanfiction and get back onto this "original plot line" thing.

[devidarkwolf.livejournal.com]

I never meant to say that the purpose of the episode was to go back to the whole moral ambiguity thing. Episodes like Bloodlust are for that, and characters like Gordon, NOT the angels, or even Ruby. If they really wanted the purpose of the episode to be to question the presence of God (something that STILL makes me shake my head, seeing as Kripke has STATED he'd never question God in the show, sigh!), then they should have done it in a different way and not brought in a fallen angel character.

I mainly look at things from a filmmaking point of view, which is why I enjoy reading the deeper theory behind it. (Thanks for this post, chasingtides!) I think creating everything that happened in this episode will bear importance for later episodes, though, so the purpose, to me, was to start something, and focus a little more on the coming shitstorm that is the Heaven vs. Hell thing, with Sam and Dean caught in the middle.

[lucywiggin.livejournal.com]

"I actually like Ruby this episode for the first time this season."

Finally! I'm not the only one...

"I'm bothered that her name is Ruby and is from medieval Europe because that's not really a decent medieval European name."

They should have named her Isabel (Maybe I've read Willis' Doomsday book too many times).

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I would happy to be a free consultant on "Names That Are At Least Vaguely Reasonable."

In one of my fics, I called her Elizabeth after an English woman who was executed for practicing witchcraft... but like I said, there are so many names to choose from!

[lucywiggin.livejournal.com]

*tries to imagine Ruby as Elizabeth*

Maybe it was a "mundane" name for them, and in their efforts, they missed an important point.

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

LOL I actually thought that it was short for Rubella implying she was an annoying possibly deadly but usually not disease

Zaz

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

I suppsect that Kripke is pulling his Angels out of medieval lore, whether Christian Jewish or Islamic as well as earlier texts from different faiths such as Zorastrian and Sumarian. On Heirachy of Angels - I agree that Uriel is often considered one of the Arch-Angels but it is not clear what an Arch-angel is or where he is in the hierarchy. According to some medieval scholars Archangels are only above Angels and Principalities (most of whom followed Lucifer and hate God and man). Yet we know for example that Michael is referred to as a Seraph in several biblical sources, the highest rank of Angels, leader of heaven's armies and that Gabriel is considered a Cherubim which is the next rank. So each Arch-angel may be the leader of one Rank of Angels. Uriel is sometimes referred to a as a Power (4th Rank) or a Cherubim (2nd Rank) but since Gabriel leads the Cherubim I would suspect he is more likely a Power. Either way another Angel could rank higher. But Uriel continues to be confusing, some religions recognize him others like the Catholic Church do not or at least not officially. The only 3 Arch Angels which are consistent across Judaic, Christian and Islamic beliefs are Michael Rapheal and Gabriel. Other wise you get a mish mash from different sources that include Uriel, Azreal/Azriel, Raguel, Sariel, Jerahmeel, Izidkiel, Hanael, and Kepharel and more that I forgot. In fact many of Uriel's actions are attributed to Gabriel in Jewish Lore or Michael or Azreal/Azriel

Which brings us to Anna. Anna is her human name and Castiel would address her as such as she has given up her angelic status. We don't know what her Angelic name is and we don't know her rank. But as I think she is based on one of the Sophia/Gabriel legends it is not unreasonable that she could have ranked higher than Uriel.

Castiel is an Angelic name made up in the 14th century. Considering the scarcity of information on Castiel we don't know his rank and its not like he is going to give Dean Winchester his Rank. He could be high ranking or not - when he says he is an Angel of the Lord its like saying I am human rather than I am Head of the Joint Chief's of Staff.

Finally the only thing that I thought was off is that Anna said that only 4 have seen God, when most texts state there are 7 that stand before God's throne, but then I remembered that a lot of non-Judeo/Christian resources refer to 4 only, representing the 4 cardinal point, the 4 seasons, 4 key virtues , 4 elements etc. So I can see where 4 is based on other religious texts. However even if Uriel is one of those 4 or 7 that have seen God as leader of a rank of Angels he could still report to Anna when God does notcall him directly with out Anna herself ever seeing God.

Medieval Legends are such a mish mash that really Kripke could make anything happen and still have a source

Zaz

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Uriel is a Cherubim.

As for things made up in the fourteenth century (though I'm not sure that's when Castiel was thought into existence), that doesn't mean that people didn't/don't believe in him. After all, everything had to be made up at some point. I'm not sure you get gold stars for being older. And in ranks, I'm pretty sure that Castiel's rank is Angel rather than, say, Seraph.

We have no idea who Anna is. But as I can be pretty sure we're using Christian mythology to a certain extent due to the presence of Lucifer and therefore Uriel would be an archangel, then Anna should be one of the other archangels, the Metatron, or some other superpower for Uriel to be reporting to her. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying the mish mash doesn't make sense. Medieval religion has a strict internal logic that buoys it up - this seriously screws with the religious logic.

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

I don't see Uriel as doing the grunt work for Castiel. Uriel was called in as a specialist in his role as an Angel of Destruction and Death. Castiel's role is that of a diplomat. They work together and their strengths complement each other. Castiel does not threaten Uriel with what he would do with him, rather he reminds Uriel of what they were told God wanted.

Is Uriel an Archangel? does he stand before God? Is he a Cherubim? Yes depending on the text these things are true. But not in all. During the Middle Ages and the early days of the church there were different scholars and philosophers and occultists writing about Angels and with no internet to tie them together the writings conflict as frequently as they agree. The result is a lot of mixed up and conflicting information for Kripke to build his own mythology from Wikapedia points out that in "apocryphal, kabbalistic and occult works Uriel has been equated or confused with Nuriel, Uryan, Jeremiel, Vretil, Sariel, Suriel, Puruel, Phanuel, Jehoel, Jacob, Ezrail/Azrael and Israfil/Raphael."


In using Lucifer, Kripke does not confine himself to just Christian Mythology. Lucifer is s also Jewish and Islamic too. Azazel and the Grigori as well as Lilith and the charms for protection against her reference (not Lilitu or the other variations of her name) all are traced back to Jewish myths or works.

I have only been able to trace Castiel back to one source the Heptamaron published about 100 years after the supposed author's (d'Abano) Death. Other than saying that he is an Angel of Thursday and the generic information about the Angels of Thursday, there is no other specific information about him. After all the same text lists another Angel often considered to be an Archangel as an an Angel of Thursday with out identifying his rank. Angel's of Thursday also preside over procuring the love of woman, to cause men to be merry and joyful; to pacify strife and contentions; to appease enemies; to heal the diseased, and to disease the whole; to cause losses, or take them away.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Well, simply put, no.

As in, you are wrong. At least on the Lucifer bit.

Yes, Judaism and Islam both have Lucifer-like figures, but they are not called Lucifer. Judaism has the Adversary. But Lucifer - the Light Bearer, the Morning Star, the Fallen Angel who is bound in Hell by a number of Seals - is a distinctly Christian figure. Islam has Iblis who bears a more than passing resemblance to Lucifer, sure, but Iblis is very distinct from Lucifer.

If you want to say that the Big Three all have a Satan figure, you'd be right - though the Jewish figure is very, very, very different from the Christian and Islamic concepts of Satan - but you're fundamentally wrong when you say that Judaism and Islam have Lucifer.

As for your issues with Uriel, I do hope that you know that this confusion applies to just about every figure at one point or another. And while the medieval Church didn't have all of the texts or all of the most accurate translations, they weren't exactly chickens with their heads cut off. They knew what they were doing and did it. Don't believe the hype when people tell you that everyone was an idiot in the medieval period.

I don't see Uriel as doing the grunt work for Castiel.

Then why would Uriel not correct Dean when Dean called Castiel his boss?

Also, you seem, with Uriel (and Castiel), to be totally picking and choosing what you think is relevant, regardless of what the show says. You accept the fact that he is an angel of Destruction and Death, but cannot accept that he is an archangel because it does not fit into your schema. As static_pixie said below, Uriel is kind of a Big Deal. (I'm not sure about your religious background, but yeah, even in the modern Catholic Church, he's kind of big.) The show is going with the idea that four angels can enter into the presence of God - those four should be the four archangels. If there are four archangels they should be Gabriel, Michael, Rafael, and Uriel. Even if we're going with Islam (and I seriously see no reason why the Hell we would, but you seem to like it), Uriel - as the aforementioned angel of Death and Destruction - would fit as the fourth archangel. He's definitely one of the top archangel of Judaism and Orthodox Christianity (which both have seven archangels, as opposed the the Western Christian four).

Other than saying that he is an Angel of Thursday and the generic information about the Angels of Thursday, there is no other specific information about him.

Thus implying, in my mind, that there is no other specific information about him, making him a low-ranking angel. The more special you are, the more information there is to be had. And plenty of angels of low rank match up, in terms of their dominion, with angels of high rank. Take, for example, all of the angels of southerly winds.

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

As in, you are wrong. At least on the Lucifer bit.

You are correct my error - I should have said religions world wide have Lucifer like figures

As for your issues with Uriel, I do hope that you know that this confusion applies to just about every figure at one point or another.

Of course it does - that is exactly my point. Because confusion applies Kripke and his writers can do choose what they want to use. This makes Castiel perfect for them to play with, Kripke can make him as high or low or give him any role that he likes. Quite frankly because of his history, I think Castiel is a work of fiction. There is no religious historical reference for him that I can find, no scripture, no alternate religion that I can point to. The only source I find him in one publication created 100 years after the author's death . That being said whatever Kripke thinks Castiel's rank I don't get the vibe that he is Uriel's boss.

If you watch Castiel and Uriel together, I have only seen Castiel order Uriel once in ITGPSW where he cut Uriel's rant off and tells him "enough"- but that does not mean he is Uriel's boss only that he may have a veto. For example at work I am not even officially on the management ladder but when I go into a meeting my function and not my rank will let me veto even people higher pay grade than I, only a company VP can over-ride me. That is how I see Castiel; some one whose role in that ITGPSW not his rank allows him to shut down Uriel. Castiel may have done most of the talking in ITGPSW but he was acting as first contact/diplomat and Uriel was too contemptuous of Mud-monkey's to even talk to them until he was dissatisfied with how Castiel was handling things.' By the time you get to the end of ITGPSW Uriel is acting on his own and in H&H I see him definitely in the lead. But then that job is different

Then why would Uriel not correct Dean when Dean called Castiel his boss?

Why should he bother to correct a mud monkey?? Anymore than he bothered to address the fact that Dean accused him of being built like a Ken doll with more than a laugh - like that would even bother an Angel :rollseyes: Why should he explain anything to one he sees as unworthy, one who broke down and became a torturer in hell?

Also, you seem, with Uriel (and Castiel), to be totally picking and choosing what you think is relevant, regardless of what the show says

Actually I am listening to the show - the show says from his first appearance that he was a specialist at smiting but never that he was an Arch Angel. In the show's schema he may not be. Also the show never gives any indication of Castiel's rank only that he was capable of dragging a soul from hell. Both you and I are pulling information from other sources because the show provides diddly-squat

Thus implying, in my mind, that there is no other specific information about him, making him a low-ranking angel. The more special you are, the more information there is to be had.

Think of all the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones all of which are top ranked and yet we do not even know their names. It is more accurate then to say we know more about God's messengers to earth than we do about higher ranking Angels. Which may suggest that God sends to earth only those of low rank. That would be in line witho the Heirarchy of Angels that you linked, in it ArchAngels rank just above Angels and below everyone else. But that gets in to that mess again about Arch Angel lead the different ranks of Angels or whether they are order in themselves. To make this mess worse I had a religious studies teacher who taught that all the other ranks were mis-interpretations of Paul and there are only Seraphim and Cherubim and that Arch-Angel only applies to Michael was just adapted to refer to the 7 or 4 (depending on the source) that stand before God.

Which all wraps around to my main pt - other than the top 3, Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, which are pretty well locked down there is enough conflicting and confused information that Kripke can pretty much build and twist angelic mythos to fit the shows needs.

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

Sorry for butting in.


you know, I had instantly thought that Anna *may be* Metatron since she made a choice and it turned her human - and not Fallen. But at the same time - whouldn't Metatron come to earth as a - well a guy? Since - from what I understand- Metatron was Enoch (one of the 2 times that a human wasa turned into an Angel)

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I love that idea! I'd forgotten that happened in Enoch.

Until you're proven wrong, that might be my new canon. It would totally feed into my theory that gender and sex are two different things for demons and angels in this show. However, then there's the issue of Dean having sex with the Metatron.

However, even Anna talks about falling - that she made the choice to fall. She literally tore out her grace. She literally fell to earth. She is fallen - the angels and the demons know this and talk about this. Remember that before he fell Lucifer was one of the most favoured, if not the most favoured, angel in the heavens. I really don't see why Anna is getting special treatment unless she's actually Jesus.

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

And Metatron carried Human Grace as well as Angelic Grace so he wouldn't have fallen, fallen. I've alwasy thought that Metatron *did* see the face of God though... but it's the only way to make the order that we have seen work. But why come back as a girl if he had been a guy before he was 'carried up to heaven'? Unless it was like 'well I've been a guy time for a change of pace'

I think sex and Gender are very different things for angles and demons (not just in the show but in theology) I think, in this case, they take the sex of the host, but they may be gendered interanly - well some of the Angels are sexed. I've alwasy wondered how an angel would think of its self. I think of Mike as male, Gabe as female, but... you never know. Right?

Except Cas. has to be one of the other "named Angels" and not the guy made up in the M.A.

Odd thing about Cas and Ruby - they seem to be about the same age...


I also wonder if Anna could have been Mary Magdalen - with the refrances to sex adn the red hair? (I would rather she was Metatron)

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

It would be really kind of awesome if Castiel was, at one point, human and he and Ruby were from the same period and knew each other when they were human.

I hope that this wasn't the only time we see Anna, even if she has another body next time. Because she created more problems than she solved. If she's just a throw away character, I will be really frustrated.

Although, if Anna were Mary Magdalen (or Metatron) wouldn't she have seen God? (If the former, in the form of Jesus?) I mean, the Metatron, as the Metatron would have had to see God, right? And in many texts, Metatron is just a title for a really important angel, not a name?

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

I started a fan fic, in it Casteil and Ruby were brother and sister.

I also hope we see Anna again - it would be frustrating if she was a throw away cherctier.

I don't know that Mary Magdalen ever saw the face of God directly.

Metatron whould have to have. I think Metatron is one of those things that is in dispute (Like if Arch Angel is a station or a title) my first reserch on him showed that he was 'little God' or 'voice of God' and that would make me think it was a title - a high ranking Angel that was given the job of lettting the angels know what God wants them to do. But I also found a stroy of Metatron haveing been Enoch when Enoch was alive - and was translated into an Angel when his time on earth was done.

I like the first concept on Metatron better - but the story of Enoch (son of Cain - posably by his sister)is like the ultamate redemption story.

It's All In Kripke's Head ;-)

[erinrua.livejournal.com]

Simply put?

Supernatural is Kripke's AU. *Nothing* about Supernatural's theology - in any religion - is wholly correct. There are no 66 Seals. There is no Rising of the Witnesses. And only a sanctified, ordained servant of God can make Holy Water. ;-)

That's just the easy stuff. And I never-mind any of it. Kripke isn't *trying* to get Christian mythos right. No more than he's stuck rigidly to any other myth SPN has employed. That's how I roll with it. It's all AU. This is Supernatural's world, not ours. So, to me? Borrowing angel names is nothing, after inventing Biblical prophecies from a whole cloth. *g*
Cheers ~

Erin

Re: It's All In Kripke's Head ;-)

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

My biggest issue is that they're borrowing a lot from a lot of sources and I'm not seeing a whole lot of internal logic.

Re: It's All In Kripke's Head ;-)

[hunterandhunted.livejournal.com]

That's really what's upsetting me most about this whole business, honestly (though watching it with two people with degrees in religion really isn't helping); the fact that whatever is happening in the show, they're not really agreeing with themselves. While I wish someone would do it right, I respect the difficult and numerous issues present in attempting something that's 'accurate,' and I appreciate why primetime television wouldn't want to touch the issue, but internal consistency is a big issue with me, and they're just not doing it. If you're world-building (and Eric Kripke really is, in generating this entire mythology) you have to have it agree with itself, and it really feels like he's just making stuff up, even in regards to his own canon. That and, well, some of the accuracy errors he's making are just unnecessarily dumb, but that's another story. I agree with chasingtides in that Wikipedia is your friend; a friend of mine made the comparison that in first season, Kripke and Co. were armed with Wikipedia, and now it just seems to be a Google search that takes them to Angelfire pages that have MIDIs embedded in the background that you can't shut off, and a .gif of that dancing baby meme in the upper right corner. There was so much promise here, and they're pissing a great deal of it away on silly, unnecessary mistakes.

Re: It's All In Kripke's Head ;-)

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

Absolutely - Kripke and the writers definitely have their own world view

Zaz

[static-pixie.livejournal.com]

No, I know, I've had this problem for a while now; Uriel is Kind Of a Big Deal and they're treating him like he's not. Especially now that they've made the claim that there are 4 angels who are allowed into God's presence. From everything I've read (and this includes the Book of Enoch, which I think they're pulling from) those 4 should be Gabriel, Raphael, Michael and Uriel. In Enoch, God orders Uriel to tell Noah about the flood and then gives orders to the other three regarding Azazel and the rest of the fallen angels. So if SPN's sticking to the whole '4 angels' thing, it should be those 4.

Though, honestly, the fallen angel thing bugged me more, not only because it's theologically backwards, but also because it's not like you can just take a vacation from heaven whenever you feel like it, come down and chill on earth for a while and then go back up, no harm, no foul. Becoming human would be a privilege for an angel and SPN's actually pretty much made that claim with Anna. Angels like Uriel may not get that, but a God who cast his brightest angel down into the pit for not bowing down to mankind would. How is it that Lucifer fell so far and Anna didn't?

As for Ruby...I still say she's got some kind of connection to Azazel. Azazel taught mankind the secrets for making weapons (her knife; the way she knew how to fix the colt), and also for beautifying the self, which included, among other things, how to use precious stones to make jewelry (Ruby). The first thing she wanted to know from Sam, though, was what Azazel's plan was for him, so, who knows.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I really don't see how Anna was any better than Lucifer. WHY IS SHE NOT BURNING IN HELL? Isn't that the angel equivalent of removing your soul? Seriously?

And Uriel... aaargh.

And I want Ruby to be awesome like your Ruby is. I really want her to be secretly powerful and shit.

[zazreil.livejournal.com]

Or Azrael/Azrail the angel of Death in Islamic and some Jewish lore.

Zaz

[almostinstinct.livejournal.com]

*shifty eyes*

Do you have an address?

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

*shifty eyes in return*

Yes?

[almostinstinct.livejournal.com]

Well? *gimme hands*

IT'S FOR NEFARIOUS PURPOSES. I AM NOT GOING TO TELL YOU MY DIABOLICAL PLAN BECAUSE I READ THE EVIL OVERLORD LIST. *nods*

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I will PM it to you!

*writes up suspicious list of possible nefarious purposes*

[almostinstinct.livejournal.com]

TY. I WILL STRIKE WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT. MAKE SPACE IN YOUR DIARY.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

DEAR DIARY

ALMOSTINSTINCT IS STALKING ME. MUST BUILD BOBBY-STYLE PANIC ROOM.

WILL LIKELY TAKE MORE THAN TWO DAYS.

[samidha.livejournal.com]

Wait, when did we establish that Ruby is from medieval Europe? Is that related to the witch ep or did I miss something this ep?

(Dammit I just realized my tagging system in Delicious by episode title initials is fail... heh. Oh well. I need to revamp those anyway.)

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

In Malleus Maleficarum, she says that she was human when the plague was big. The Black Plague hit Europe four(ish) times: twice during the Roman Empire and twice during the High Middle Ages. Sometimes it's considered just twice, once in the Roman period and once in the medieval period, just with two waves each time.

Either way, Ruby isn't a Roman or medieval European name.

[samidha.livejournal.com]

Ohhh. Okay. Well then Ruth's theory doesn't work... Okay. Sad. :D

But yes, you are correct. Of course.

Krip is a wee bit lazy.... I choose to ignore or mock it or I'd go crazy I think.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT HARD

[samidha.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. :P But I chose to overlook the lame so I could enjoy Show, this time around.

[egoteprovoco.livejournal.com]

There has always been a certain amount of name-changing among demons on the show. For example, we don't know the name of the Meg-demon; she always took the name of her host. (Even when it was Sam) Most demons, aside from YED, are called by their host's name. There is no reason to assume that Ruby is the name she was born with. It could be the name of a person she possessed, or just a name she liked and decidid to take for herself.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

However, the angels and other demons (Alastair and Lilith) also called Ruby Ruby.

[starry-sky247.livejournal.com]

well this doesn’t bother me at all. Kripke and his writer usually like to twist knowable information or use well known monster to something to fit their own story line .It’s good enough for me.