(no subject)

[chasingtides]

Folks:

Do you have thoughts on gender neutral language? Nomenclature? Other gender neutral items I cannot currently remember? Are you opposed? For? Mixed? Share your thoughts!

Comments

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

I am definitely FOR gender neutral language. Both for the sake of people who specifically identify as a nonbinary pronoun, and also for times when I don't know how someone identifies and I don't want to make assumptions.

Um. That's about all the thoughts I have. It is a small, empty brain, okay.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Do you have a preferred nongendered/gender-neutral pronoun to use then?

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

I usually use zie/hir, unless I have a note that someone prefers something else.

ETA: as for why that particular combo, I guess just because it's the ones I've heard the most?

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

*nods*

My only issue with those are that they aren't aurally different from she/her. I'm pondering others and while I've written others - and use the supposedly grammatically incorrect "they" more often - I've not actually heard others. Or seen then used (other than by myself).

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

Oh, oh, I thought of more to say! Duh. *facepalm* That is, in spoken conversation I do tend to use singular them/they, because people understand it (and I'm picking and choosing my battles).

It's only really if I am speaking to someone I know 'gets' the concept of nonbinary, or if I'm speaking of someone who actively prefers gender neutral terms (this doesn't happen as often as I would expect) then I will say zie (like 'zee', very hard zed) and 'hir' (I don't know how to represent the sound this makes, but it is distinct...but I guess in other accents it might not be).


eta I think it is kind of like 'here' (but I don't know how you pronounce that) or German 'hier', whereas 'her' is a distinctly different 'hur'.

[vichan.livejournal.com]

My only thoughts: my mother has stated a few times that she made sure to give me and my sisters gender neutral toys when we were babies/toddlers - basically, when we were too young to ASK for things, she made sure she wasn't buying us pink sparkly Barbie tiaras.

Since I was a baby when I was getting these things and a little bit too young to remember exactly what those toys were, the only thing that's coming to mind is Fisher Price stuff. O_o (And I'm the youngest, so I didn't see her buy stuff for my sisters, either.)

So while I have little input into the discussion you're starting, I just always thought that was kind of awesome. :)

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely for it, but that's really all I got, thoughts-wise. It's always seemed weird to me to not have gender-neutral pronouns, even before I really had any idea about gender identity, or non-binary, or what have you -- because even with something simple like a gender-neutral first name, where you're not sure how to refer to someone you only know by that gender-neutral name, gender-neutral pronouns would make things so much easier.

[earis.livejournal.com]

I don't know if there is such a thing as gender neutral language. Not that everything has to be gendered, but at least in European-American societies which are categorized by this male/female split (we're obsessed with this, and the rest of the world is like 'Whut?'), most uses of gender neutral language I have encountered are attempts to mollify, placate, or further normalize the effect of the male/female hierarchy. Of course, I have often been wrong, so I could be missing something obvious.

This is not to ignore that there is third gender nomenclature or bi or trans gendered nomenclature, or even binary oppositions which don't fit the normative categories in European-American culture.
Here's one we don't usually use - wife provider (male) and wife receiver (female).
In Eastern Indonesia, households are gendered according an ideology not of biological aspects but of roles in kinship alliances. Houses are usually androgynous, but undergo sexual dimorphism when forging alliances to facilitate a productive union. Now, male wife providers are considered hierarchically superior to female wife receivers, but not because of maleness vs. femaleness, but because the wife providers control the blood of life, the feminine attribute of the house. They are male because they are externalizing their feminine attribute.
And it gets really complicated because we just don't have the language to explain, whereas in these house based societies in Eastern Indonesia they are like 'what?'

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

In your opinion, how does gender neutral language normalise the male-female dichotomy in the Euro-American language practice/mindset?

[earis.livejournal.com]

As far as I understand, gender neutrality is present in the identity creation process of an individual, group, or other entity. The descriptive language of gender neutrality, however, is part of the performance/embodiement practice, which then become the text which is read and responded to by other individuals/groups/entities/ideologies/etc. This isn't inherently normalising in essence, but in practice I have found that gender neutral language is actually more exclusive than gender explicit language.
In most usages that I have encountered, and with a few rare exceptions I operate within a European-American mindset, many times gender neutral language (the use of 'they', for example, to refer to a single entity), whatever it is intended in creation and performance, is read as male. Even supposedly gender-neutral labels such as professions or places are read with specific genders, and these implicit genders feed into the male-normal/ female-other binary system.
Regarding specific gender neutral pronouns, which is probably what you were asking about, I try and take my cues from the people who are performing as gender neutral. But, at least for me, I run into the problem of inadequate language - what is said is rarely, if ever, what is read.
Again, this is all from my own experience.

[darkelegies.livejournal.com]

I tend to use "they" when still talking about one person whose gender I do not know (or a theoretical person). I know that switching number isn't traditionally correct, but the writing coach at my school said it's a common and more accepted usage. I don't use neutral singular pronouns, because people don't know what I mean and they for one person is a habit I've had for ages. (I frequently use it when I do know the gendered pronouns that someone uses, but I'm not being specific about who it was. eg "I asked my friend and they said...") When someone uses ze or hir, I always have to look up how to decline it, but I follow suit.

[optimus-life.livejournal.com]

From an anthro/archaeological stand point I find it intresting, from a every-day sort of stand point I've frankly never used it. Just stuck with the persons name till I felt comfortable asking what they wanted to be called and mostly it was either he or she with given name tossed in.

[crimsonkitty88.livejournal.com]

Um... not entirely sure I understand the question but I try to use 'his or her' whenever applicable.

[getyourguns.livejournal.com]

If someone wants to refer to themselves like that, more power to them, but to expect other people to might be too, much to ask. I always thought it was kind of silly but people do what they think they need to do to survive and feel better in this world so I have no qualms.

[darkelegies.livejournal.com]

Do you mean it might too much to ask to say that everyone should refer to themselves using gender neutral language or it's too much for an individual who prefers gender neutral language to ask others to refer to them using that language?

[getyourguns.livejournal.com]

I guess both? The whole world isn't going to change for one group of people and one group of people aren't going to change for one individual, as we've seen throughout history. You can have your close friends and family do it but I don't think everyone who knows you would, or at least they wouldn't remember all the time, more out of habit than being "against" it or something.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Gender neutral language isn't just about Spivak pronouns and the like. It's also about saying "businessperson" instead of "busienssman" and not using the universal "he."

[siyahsaclikiz.livejournal.com]

I like the person-ization of words like businessman/woman, but I'm not sure what to think of/how to deal with words that are already gendered, like actor/actress. Actor has taken on a gender-neutral role as of late, in an effort to reduce the gendered language (I think?), but to me it still implies male, and feels like using the universal he. I guess for newer generations actor will always have been gender neutral, and therefore this point will become moot, but it's a bit bothersome for me.

[eoswildcat.livejournal.com]

I am for gender neutral language...

not sure we have come up with truly usable gender neutral language, but it is a goal worth perusing.

[skye-princess.livejournal.com]

I am for the usage and further refinement of gender-neutral language, considering that it seems like more people are choosing to identify in a non-gender, non-traditional way (trans-gendered, androgynous, non-binary, etc.)* However, I have never/rarely used specific gender-neutral language myself. I usually use "he"/"she" or "they" when referring to a non-specific, single entity/person. Really, it's just how I was raised and taught from the people around me. Sometimes, I just tend to constantly use the person's name rather than try and come up with a preferred gender-specific (or non-specific) pronoun. Another word I use often is "one" when referring to a single entity.

* This is based completely on my personal perception of the evolution of society and the male/female dichotomy.

[lucythedragon.livejournal.com]

Talk of making language gender-neutral makes me facepalm, honestly. You can't make language evolve in the direction you want it to, or convince people to adopt words or phrasings that you want. For example, Dawkins has been trying to figure out a word besides "atheist" to describe atheism so that theology doesn't play a part in the word at all. He came up with "brights." This has obviously not caught on. People don't want to use it and it doesn't sound right. The same way that gender-neutral stuff like "s/he" just looks weird, and seems to be a product of a forced solution. Language does what it wants, and we sort of just have to get out of its way.

[getyourguns.livejournal.com]

MTE.

[lucythedragon.livejournal.com]

(Hee, icon love.)

[getyourguns.livejournal.com]

Lady Lucifer wants to have a bad romance with you.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I am pretty good about not using gender-specific language - that is, not making verbal assumptions about an unknown person's gender. I stink at using completely gender-neutral language. I would love it for good third person singular gender-free pronouns to take effect across the board because the singular "they" makes me cringe, and gender assumptions make me tired. If there were to be a reasonably standard set of gender-neutral pronouns that were agreed-upon by multiple parties, I would try my best to propagate their usage.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

A singular they was good enough for Shakespeare, is my usual retort when people rag on me for using it, and most grammarians think it's acceptable.

I like gender-neutral language, in theory, but I hate just about every solution people have come up with. The third pronouns (zie, hir) just sound wrong, like something from a sci-fi book. Possibly for the name of the sexy "other" gender the dashing protagonist is about to have his way with.

[apwizardry.livejournal.com]

I find the existing gender neutral pronouns really awkward and don't prefer them for myself, though I would definitely use them for someone else if they asked. I just use "they" as if it's singular.

And nouns and adjectives: I use gender neutral ones whenever possible. Taking Spanish is making me insane because everything is gendered...why should I have to indicate my gender when I'm saying something like "I'm bored?"

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

That part of Spanish does, admittedly, make me appreciate English, where I don't need to gender my emotions.

[azdaja-dafema.livejournal.com]

I am very, very fond of "their" as a possession word for other people: "I love their work", for example. But other phrases can often get quite tricky.

[siyahsaclikiz.livejournal.com]

I tend to use they, their, etc when I don't know/want to make clear the (gender) identity of the person I'm referring to.

I'll go along with ze and hir, but "ze" sounds like a bad impression of a bad French-speaking-English accent to me, and hir conjures up hirsute in my mind (in my brain, lots of words are linked with images to which they don't have any logical connection to - for example, the word we have for crossing yourself brings up images of a certain kind of fish. It's all to do with the sort of similar sounds.) So they sound very awkward to me. I wish "it" were not designated for non-humans, that would make things much easier. It's that way in some languages, including my mother tongue, and while it can make things hard to keep track of written multiparticipant dialogues, it still beats "he or she."

[una--sola.livejournal.com]

I'm in the them/they camp ("proper English grammar" be damned) unless someone requests to be referred to by a specific gender-neutral pronoun. At which point, it's their choice and referring to them by anything else is rude and disrespectful. If, for some reason, I absolutely MUST use a singular gender neutral pronoun to refer to a person, I like 'na' and 'nan.'

I WILL NOT use 'it,' though I've seen it proposed. 'It' is for houseplants and table lamps. Even my car is not an 'it' for the most part. And I really don't like ze/zie/hir, so I won't use them unless someone requests that I do. Ze/zie/hir seem so forced and there's something about them that I just don't like, even if I can't quite put my finger on it. I think it might be that thing siyahsaclikiz pointed out - it sounds like a bad, faked French accent.

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

Whoo - this is wayy out of date but I have two cents to put in!

I use, in my non-fiction writing, 'they' as a gender neutral pronoun - unless I'm spesifcially referring to a spesific gender. I find it actually reads quite well in text and doesn't pull the reader out as they go WTF? if they're not familar with the concept of gender neutral langauge.

When there are gender neutral titles, like chair (for chairman) or businessperson for etc ... I use them. There are a few holdouts in my language - policeman - but I often write those words as if they were gender neutral (so, I'll write 'the policeman did this and such and they were very cool'). I've always used actor, poet, writer and etc as gender neutral terms because the feminine terms were orginally used disparigingly (writeress, poetess etc) by critics of the idea that women could be good actors, poets and whatever. Those words already are gender neutral, even if they have been more frequently applied to men than women.

I hate the most popular form of new gender neutral terms (ze, hir, etc), because as was pointed out above, they sound exactly like she and her unless both your ear is tuned and the pronouncer is very careful. To me, it implies that women can get off the gender binary but men cannot - in other words, their aural relation to female terminology, no matter how careful people are in pronunciation, implies that gender neutral is feminine. More importantly, they're made up words. They have no etymological history, are not descended from existing constructions of being verbs and remind me of nothing so much as a pre-teen's attempt to create a 'cool alien language'.

While it is possible to change language and the use of they as a gender neutral term is slowly spreading, that chang happens organically, like evolution, you can't just stick a fake word in and expect people to swallow it. Espeically when the fake word was designed pretty much to look cute and was not generated out of pre-existing structures.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

.... Why haven't I friended you yet?

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

It's a mystery!

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

One that I'm remedying.