The Radical Notion That Women Are People Too: Sexism Among SPN Fans

[chasingtides]

Sexism in Supernatural, and its ensuing debate, is old news. I wrote my own meta, drawing on my experiences as a hardened horror fan, about it in September, Why Supernatural Is Like The Evil Dead. However, today, in light of what has happened with Misha Collins and his character, Castiel, I might revise that original opinion, I regret to say. More on that later.

Despite the talk about the show itself being sexist, I've never seen anyone look specifically at the sexism and misogyny present among the primarily female fans. Taking a number of things into consideration, from what has happened with Misha Collins and Castiel to the recent wank about an actor's girlfriend daring to exist, I think it's high time that someone did.

If you watched the embedded video above, you watched three actors from the show (Misha Collins, Jensen Ackles, and Jared Padalecki) and their interviewer discuss the blatant sexism in the fandom. I, for one, am embarrassed that I fall, broadly, into the same category as these misogynists.

A quick perusal of Fandom Wank (a source, which, while wanky, is a great place to find an overview of the worst of any fandom) shows us people in this fandom getting upset over (and at) women for years. We get gems like (2007-2-19) fans going after women (ex girlfriends) associated with the actors, (2007-7-12) fans getting angry that two women (Bela and Ruby) would appear in season three, (2007-11-16) people getting angry that an underage actress dares to drink and put the show into disrepute, (2008-1-21) someone is called out for bashing (literally) women in her fanfiction, and (2009-3-31) people getting angry that an actor's girlfriend exists.

Television Without Pity and its associated forums also carry their own anti-female baggage. Ruby is known as Gluby (a name smush, I have been told, of Glinda - of good witch fame - and Ruby). Of Ruby, people write things like, "I'm not going to cheer just because the character wore an expression, for once," "She tries to tell us that she is into the method acting. I wish she wasn't. You really need a talent to transfer it from your mind to outside, in her case she only stuffs her head with wild ideas," "That scene gave off way too many Ruby is too speshul to kill vibes for me," and, "What I saw was that they know about her and are waiting for her to have enough rope to hang herself." It continues with the other women. Anna gets, "It's the casting and the acting that makes Anna into such a wasted opportunity," and Jo gets, "I think if she'd been played by someone who actually looked like an adult, the character would have been far less irritating." although one fan adds, "if she were to come back as a hunter, an ally and possibly kill Gluby once and for all, I'd throw her a parade."

I debated naming names, but why should I hesitate? If you think I have interpreted your posts/language/fanfiction/meta wrongly, feel free to let me know. I am only human. If we have a discussion and you show me that I am wrong, I will change this.

The fans on LiveJournal aren't any better than the TWoP fans.

huntress69 bashes, sometimes literally, the female characters in her fiction. I remember, quite vividly, being new to fandom and reading the fic in which Sam drugs Cassie and buries her alive to keep her away from Dean. Cassie appeared in one episode in season one and was never mentioned again. I don't mean to suggest that huntress69 is unique by naming her. She is not, by any means. She is merely someone I remember clearly. Consider her an example of a genre, rather than a unique outlier.

dean_sam gets more than its share of misogyny, one of the reasons I took it off my flist. spnstoryfinders periodically gets requests for fics bashing female characters. There's the impression, in many communities, and even in personal journals, that one must clarify why or how one likes a female character. "I like Jo, but not as a love interest." "I like Ruby, but not when she was snarky."

In addition, Misha Collins threw a monkey wrench into our sexist habits. He, in my mind, takes away our excuses, negates our ability to turn a blind eye to our own internalised hatred. Before, we were able to say, "Oh, they hate anyone who takes away from Sam and Dean." If Misha is to be believed in his interviews, the Powers that Be said the same thing. They warned him that, as a guest star, he would be reviled. Instead, he has become beloved. I know. I co-mod mishaland, a rapidly growing caplock community devoted to him. And yet, we continue to revile the female characters and actresses. TPTB listened to our hatred and to our outcries. Misha Collins will be returning next season as Castiel, something that no female guest star has done. Yes, this is sexism on the part of TPTB who shouldn't do this. But the blame falls to us - we are the ones who raised the hue and cry. We are the ones who demanded to be heard.

Do I blame Misha Collins for this? No. No more than I blame Alona Tal for the fact that Jo, my personal hero, has not returned to the show. No more than I blame Kate Cassidy for being replaced by Genevieve Cortese. This blame falls to us.

This also creates a problematic binary in the fandom. Either you are for the women or you are against the women. It becomes difficult to dislike a character or an actress and not be painted with the same brush as those who have Cassie buried alive. I, for one, am not a fan of Genevieve Cortese and her Ruby. However, I greatly hesitate to say that, though I love many other female characters who have graced the screen, for saying that I find Cortese's acting to be flat is tantamount to misogyny.

This false binary is just as unfair as the great misogyny. We are, contrary to popular belief, allowed to dislike characters based on what their characters do and don't do. (I, for one, find the whole demon blood drinking bit to be more stomach turning than anything else in the show, probably for cultural signifiers.)

It also grows difficult to separate the characters from the fandom. Is Castiel, and his actor by extension, a part of the clamor of fans who love him and slam the women, presumably on the value of what's between their legs? Is Ruby, and her actress by extension, a part of the crowd that labels you sexist if you suggest that you don't like her acting? Or can we accept the characters as separate from that? Are we able to separate the actors from their characters? Does it all blend into a giant ball of hatred, anger, and wank?

I don't know the answer to this. I know that I am becoming more and more selective in the communities I read and erring ever closer to going exclusively capslock, though it seems almost irrational to go to capslock communities to avoid hatred and irrationality to an outsider. I become hesitant in friending people. I also hesitated to write this meta. I know that it will cause problems. I've been planning this for months, but it was seeing the YouTube video that spurred me on.

Whatever the answers are, whatever reasons we have or don't have, this has got to have an ending point. We are women tearing down women. We are calling women whores and sluts and worse, for what? Daring to grace our television screens? Most of these women kick ass and take names. For the most part, they're awesome (Bela's backstory and Ruby's current apparent subservience aside). Why can't we, as presumably awesome women ourselves, appreciate that?

Comments

[crimsonkitty88.livejournal.com]

I barely go on any of the comms for the reasons you've stated. I just... don't want to deal with it. All the stupidity and just blatant sexism and hate and ridiculousness.

*sigh*

(I loved Jo too btw. high five!)

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

This is interestingly written and raises a lot of salient points. As an outsider looking into the SPN fandom, it really does seem like a lot of anti-feminism going on, especially when contrasted with something like the Buffy fandom which by contrast attracted (and attracts) a lot of hardcore feminists and gender egalitarians.

It's kind of a shame, and I wonder if it's possible for TPTB to undo the damage that they've done. They've set themselves up for a fandom that is not open to long-term, female characters. And really, the scriptwriters have themselves to blame for so much of it. They get the audience - in the very first few episodes of the series - used to strong, lonely men who are used to seeing their women brutally killed (the mother, the girlfriend). Women were set up in the first hours of the show to be malicious or non-lasting characters. The very first villain in the show, is a woman who uses her sexuality to brutally kill men, and who is a poor mother figure. The other mother figure who is seemingly a positive influence is absent and dead.

I imagine media analysts are having a field day with this kind of stuff - not least, the popularity of SPN among female fans despite fairly blatant misogyny entrenched within the actual show itself.

[crimsonkitty88.livejournal.com]

Another quick thought

There's the impression, in many communities, and even in personal journals, that one must clarify why or how one likes a female character. "I like Jo, but not as a love interest."

That's kind of funny because I find myself having to do the same thing with Castiel. If you don't ship Castiel with Dean, you obviously don't understand their relationship.

Yeah. Whatever.

I love Cas but not with Dean. Same as I loved Jo and the first Ruby just not invloved romantically with either of the boys. I'm too much of a Sam/Dean girl to see anything else.

(And now it sounds like I'm trying to say something in my own defense. THat's really not what this is about. Not at all. I really don't know how to respond to anything without adding my own experiences into the mix and sometimes that comes out a bit... narcisstic? yeah...)

[ibroketuesday.livejournal.com]

We are calling women whores and sluts and worse, for what?

This is what gets me. Dislike Ruby? Dislike Anna, Jo, whoever? Fine, I don't care. But I see, so often, insults like whore, skank, slut, manipulative bitch, etc etc - all of this based on truly ridiculous stuff. For example, Anna's sex scene with Dean. I will never understand why reaching out to Dean in a time when both were in danger of being killed and were in need of comfort makes her a manipulative skank. These fans go beyond disliking a character. They vilify them to ridiculous degrees.

It's utterly unsurprising, really, that male characters would be more successful in a female-majority fandom, because a part of character affinity is based on sexual attraction. Characters you're attracted to are automatically more interesting, you're willing to give them more of a chance, etc etc etc. You might even be biased in their favor from the get-go. I've actually had favorite characters who I didn't see as hot initially, but I always wound up feeling attraction as they advanced in my affections. In that vein, it's nothing remarkable that fans, by and large, welcomed Castiel with open arms. What is remarkable is the rampant, outright hate for the female characters. They aren't appreciated even on a non-rabid fanworship level, they aren't tolerated, they aren't even ignored. They are loathed on a freakishly large scale. I cannot go anywhere in fandom without encountering bashing.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to this, I think; fans are possessive of their ships (Sam/Dean, Castiel/Dean) and feel that the women - who could canonically become love interests - threaten them; fans are used to the show being only SamnDean and hate anyone else butting in (I have also seen Castiel bashing because of this); the women don't get the get out of jail free card that being sexually attractive to the fans gives the hot males; and, yes, there is an element of sexism, and it's exacerbated by all of the above. It becomes especially apparent, as previously mentioned, when hurling insults and getting those hated characters down any way possible. I guess that must be the sociological product of a sexist society, manifesting in the gender it hurts. *sigh*

I've been thinking a little about what would have happened if Cas had been played by a (talented) female actress, and she'd probably be dead by now. But Dean/Castiel would've become canon first. That's a fannish problem and a writerly problem. Fans react with instinctive vitriol against any female presence on the show, unless there's no way she'll be around much or will sleep with any of the boys (no one has any problems with Ellen, Missouri, Pamela - yeah, dude, 'cause they're obviously never gonna be love interests! And also they're awesome, but fuck, so is Ruby, and mostly, so is Anna). Looking at what happened when Anna was introduced, Dean met her one episode and they had sex the next. Why? Why couldn't it have been platonic, writers? And built up organically? Don't you know that's how you draw people into relationships? That's probably another reason that Castiel wouldn't be so popular if he'd been a woman; people would just be like "Oh la, when will Dean sleep with the pretty angel?" and they'd be right, and it would be boring. And even if it were an exact mirror of their current canon relationship, it would have shippers - hell, I'd probably be one - but not to the extent it does now. But I don't think that's sexism so much as a simple slash preference in fandom exerting itself. The widespread bashing of lady!Cas certainly would be sexist, though. And now I think I'm digressing. I should go to bed.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I for one am very uncomfortable when I see the women characters slammed with derogatory epithets. I remember at wincon how the critique against Dean as a misogynist was at least partly based on his calling Ruby a skank -- and yet I've seen fans use the term too too often.

To be fair, I think that women fans can be angered by stereotypical women characters, and I think that's fair for them to air their anger. On the one hand you have angry real live women, and on the other hand, mere fictional characters who are products of writers, a storyline, and a TV production system.... anger is displaced onto actors, who, as women, conform to the culturally constructed beauty myth, and who are cast and directed to conform to certain expectations....

I guess what I've seen firsthand is smart women applying a strong feminist critique against the show and finding the female characters coming up wanting time after time. (I personally have argued the other way, and I think gender politics on the show is fairly sophisticated -- I'm willing to argue!)

Because as fans, we LOVE samndean, so that even if we are troubled by sexist behaviors on their part, we still keep watching the show.... then Misha comes one and is very pretty and we love him too! but when Bela or Ruby or Anna come on, we immediately begin to argue about how their characters are predictable and flat and how the women's acting sucks. (Of course, a lot of fans HAVE actually not enjoyed the bringing on Angels... Misha hasn't caught wind of that yet I suppose.)

Maybe Castiel IS predictable and flat... but it doesn't bother us because it's not just one more depiction of someone sharing our gender, with the same stereotypical traits and flaws we've seen so often.....

So, I do think we should be concerned that Jared and Jensen and Misha look at fandom and see us as ''sexist against ourselves" -- I hope it makes people at least consider WHY they hate the women they hate..... but as a feminist, I just can't write off the ALL anger as internalized misogyny either.

When a show like Dollhouse actually tries to openly talk about how women are sexualized, it tries to talk about identity as a construct, it tries to talk about the resilience and ingenuity of a woman stripped almost completely bare -- Fen still don't like it. oh well.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

The name calling really bothers me, especially when it extends to the actors playing the part. (I, for one, actually call Dean an ethical slut - and I do actually mean it in a good way - but I wouldn't think to call Jensen a slut.)

Honestly, my biggest issues with the female characters is when they're given their backstories. I loved Ruby and Bela until I learned that they had these sob stories - they're supposed to be the little sisters we need to care for. But... that's me wanting to have kick-ass women who are kick-ass for kick-ass sake. It hurts me a bit when I see fans slamming the women who don't have the sob story background (Anna, Jo, Ellen, Missouri).

I think part of the problem - the reason I am not saying, "Oh, we're discussing problems with the show," - is that the fans write off the women BEFORE they appear or just as they appear. In the fandom wank section of my meta, I showed women bashed Ruby and Bela before they ever showed up on screen. Characters like Jo and Anna gained strength as characters after an episode or two - which makes sense (Castiel, John, and Bobby were not strong in their first appearances).

When we write off women without ever giving them a chance, we are being irrationally misogynist. When we aren't giving forum to discuss the potential problems and strengths of the female characters, we are being irrationally misogynist. I really don't know how else to view it. Perhaps there are places where women are being discussed - other than the capslock forums - but I have not seen them, outside of their relationship to men.

I have many, many issues with the Dollhouse, especially in the idea that they say that they are trying to show us that this is badwrongbad, but all I see when I watch the show is them trying to show me how hot it is. I don't see it as a discussion of the sexualisation of women, but as an example of it. (Given, I stopped watching after... episode seven? because it was being highly problematic to me and not worth it.)

[gembat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for writing this. Just... thank you. <3

And just because you mentioned it, I've never been a member of the main comms, which is probably why it took so long for me to get into fandom at large, as it were. I'm basically exclusively capslock, and it's awesome. I've never interacted with any of the misogynistic fans on a personal level, so you know. It's not the worst thing in the world to consider.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I've started modding over at impalabackseat, which is attempting to be a sane place. Beyond that, at the moment, I'm pretty much either capslock or in fic comms. Or spnstoryfinders, even though they scar my brain.

[isaacsapphire.livejournal.com]

This covers pretty well one of the reasons that I'm a bit shy of this fandom. My RL experience suggests that women are in fact more misogynistic on average than men and fandom seems to confirm it. (eg. woman at work needs something heavy off of a high shelf. She asks me to get a man. I go get a ladder. She is shocked. The guys don't do this usually and tend to be more susceptible to logic when they do "There's no one else to do it." Guy says, "Can I help?" I say, "Thanks but no thanks, lawyers. It's not as bad as it looks." Woman repeats, "You shouldn't do this, go get a man." while I get the item and hand it to her/put it in her cart.)

I do wonder if the mitigating powers of sexual attraction has something to do with it. I like most of the female characters (Jo, Ellen, and Bella in particular), but I'll admit that I'm bi and a lot of them are cute, which doesn't explain everything. However, I really didn't like Anna OR Castiel and I'm kind of baffled by how much people like Castiel. Maybe it's just all the (more ethical) slash fans wanted a non-RPS, non-incest pair so bad they'd jump at anything?

One thing, I'm newer, but how the heck was Pamala not viewed as a "threat"? She openly hit on both of the boys, Dean was looking, and she wasn't hideous or old.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure how Pamela wasn't a threat. By the same note, I also don't see how Jo was. I wasn't in fandom at the time, but it seems pretty clear to me, when I watched the episodes, that nothing would happen between then.

Maybe sexual attraction does play a part. I'm pansexual, so maybe I'm just too attracted to the attractive male and female characters or something. However, I mostly go, "Hey, strong character I can relate to! Awesome!" so I don't know that my sexuality plays a huge part. (Admittedly, though, I have a massive fictional-character crush on Jo. But that's because she's awesome. *nods sagely* And I definitely wasn't feeling any attraction Bela or Ruby last season, but I liked them then.)

[isaacsapphire.livejournal.com]

Dean's an ethical slut in that he doesn't pretend to be looking for anything but what he is; a one-night stand, fun, not a relationship. Lisa seems to have as positive a memory of their time together as Dean does; he gives as good as he gets in bed. But he also lies to get into girls' pants, which really does some damage to the whole ethical thing.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I don't think Dean is asking or expressing that he wants anything more than a one night stand when he sleeps with women and I think he looks for women who want the same thing; that's what I meant when I said ethical.

Yes, lying to the women is problematic. On the other hand, is it more problematic than living off of stolen credit cards? Or desecrating graves?

[mresundance.livejournal.com]

I have little to add except: yes, this.

The show itself is pretty sexist at points. But the way the fans contribute to it is appalling. They never seem happy with any female character, regardless of how smart and competent she is. Jo interferes too much with the boys so she has to go. Nevermind that she's smart, sassy, and has a natural talent for hunting. Bella outfoxes them and makes them look like chumps (and rightly so), so she's a "bitch" and has to go. Nevermind that she's savvy, self-motivated and independent and no damsel in distress.

Ruby is too "mean" when Cassidy played her (ie, a bitch, again), and has to go. Nevermind that she is a seriously badass women and seriously awesome in her moral ambiguities. Cortese's Ruby is too "flat" so she has to go. Never mind that she is still pretty awesome and her ambiguities are now all over the place.

Nothing that the writers can do will ever please some members of fandom. I am not always happy with the women characters - particularly if Sera Gamble writes them. She seems to write some of the weirdest, most contradictory and unrealistic women of the series (women who attempt to come off as "empowered" but then just end up being relegated to "Winchester sex conquest" kind of status, or "damsel in distress"; blargh). But, yes. Fandom is a big ol' chunk of it. It is not just Mr. Kripke or Sera or the producers or whatnot.

[isaacsapphire.livejournal.com]

On paper Jo looked like a threat. It took about three seconds of actually watching her to see that Dean/Jo went over like a lead balloon, possibly contributed to by the fact that Dean suspected she was his little sister when he first met her.

The problem with Ruby, for me, is that I don't trust her so I can't be all, "She's great." but I don't understand her at all, so I can't be like, "She's a psycho killer bitch, but she's an AWESOME psycho killer bitch" like I was with Bella. Bella was awesome and actually worked fantastically with the boys.

Also, I've concluded that it is impossible to make people happy with how you portray women, minorities, or any other group. If you don't portray them, you're evil. If you do portray them, you do it wrong somehow. Every. Single. Time. I've given up in my original fiction. I just do what I want now, and if that makes me evil, well, then I'm evil. So be it.

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Crumbs. Okay, I'm feeling very lucky not to have frequented those communities, and conscious of being a bit out-of-the-loopy. I was aware that the show had its squicky gender issues, and that slash fandom in general has a grisly tendancy to be misogynist - and I've been aware of negativity toward Ruby and Anna, because plenty of comments to my stories have been along the lines of "yours is the only Ruby I like!" etc. (Er - that sounds a bit self-congratulatory, but I just mean that feedback has been tempered with that whole rather bemusing '...but in general I think she's a cow' thing.) But I didn't realise it was as extreme as this.

But I believe you. I've not had any particular inclination to join communities for anything other than fanfic, and you've certainly confirmed me in that!

fwiw, I loved the hell out of Ellen and Jo; I thought Cassie was fine (but the actress's delivery wasn't all it could have been, imho); I thoroughly enjoyed Bela (and had no problems with her backstory, actually, although I know that's controversial); and I've enjoyed both Rubies, although I think Katie Cassidy's was better than Gen's version. (...but Gen gets brownie points from me for shallow and obvious reasons, because - guh.) OMG, and Pamela was FAB. Poor Pamela. And Anna - I liked the first episode quite a bit, and the second half of the story a LOT. Bringing her back for 4.16 was great, though - I really enjoyed what we saw of her there. I'd like to see more glimpses of her badassery, but generally speaking I'm good with her.

Reading through the comments here is quite disheartening. I don't move in circles where people slag off characters, particularly not in this casually misogynistic way, and this is making me want to hug my little corner of the internet.

Um...what do you mean by "Capslock community"?

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I certainly do agree with you that internalized misogyny does seem to be an aspect of our fandom.... however, there are enlightened feminists out there who are arguing in ways parallel to the folks who are just bashing women. It makes it a very confusing battleground, because people don't really fly their colors.

To fly my own colors, I am a full on feminist (I actually have academic credentials as a feminist); I've metaed fairly hard about the women characters and why I love them; and I write women into my fic when I can. (tho I totally failed at this year's Luna fest, the first two weeks of February where I was supposed to write a fic a day about women characters, sigh, it was too busy a time.)

The bashing of women characters before they appear is one of the main problems with spoilering. Time after time people get so worked up about things before they are even aired -- I don't get involved in all of that, because I think it's not fair to any of the creative team to judge their product based on speculation!! I mean, COME ON.

Yeah, with Dollhouse, I seem to be watching an entirely different show than most folks. That's perspective for you.

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Aw, your ICON. I don't think Joss is quite as Feminist as he thinks he is, but I still think he fucking rocks.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

well, for example, I'm in this crazy comm called fuckyeahruby. It's called a capslock community cause you have to CAPSLOCK ALL THE TIME. If you wank they throw you out. It's pure crack over there tho.
"Sam is in a cage cause he IS BITCHIER THAN RUBY." would be an example!!

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Capslock communities would be capslock_spn, mishaland, and fuckyeahruby. They're places where you have to write in capslock. They generally have to be experienced to be understood, but basically, when everything is for the lulz, you don't get people spewing the misogynistic crap I talked about it my post. (And the mods at all the communities love the women of SPN, which helps. At mishaland it's a compliment when we decided Anna is a manatee.) I hope that made sense.

[watchsnowfall.livejournal.com]

Huh. Being new to LJ and pretty much completely outside of Fandom besides MISHALAND and Fandom!Secrets, I had no idea for the longest time some fans disliked the women so much.
I mean....I've always wanted to be the female characters, not replace them. I was pretty stoked when I found out Bela and Ruby would join the show, because I've always been a fan of strong females, and woman-of-the-week was tiring (although I was never really a Jo fan...go figure).
I don't know, it's tough to say. Sometimes I feel like the actresses are just chosen for how skinny they are, regardless of talent. That's obviously society's problem, just not Supernatural. We've grown up in a place that makes it okay to comment and be snarky, and if you couple that with internet anonymity and non-accountability, it's ridiculousness galore.
I also feel like some fans forget - they don't know J2. No matter how many interviews we read and watch, pictures we stare at or conventions we go to, no matter how much J2 fic we write, we don't know the actual people because J2 is performing all the time. Kinda like in 4x18 when that publisher was like "I don't need anyone making fun of my boys."
That's thing about fandom. Despite disclaimers, people feel like they've come to own people who aren't real.

I know you from MISHALAND and got here from gembat's journal, hope that's okay. =)

[oatmeal-queen.livejournal.com]

I really liked the organization of this post. You pulled in a great deal of examples that are unfortunately well-known to a lot of the more sane fans in this fandom, and also brought to light some things I hadn't even heard about (yet). It's true, there is a great deal of female-character bashing from the outside perspective of those who are not interested in Show. We have become hypocritical stereotypes of ourselves with the actions of few compared to the amount of viewers that Show actually has.

What I find the most unfortunate about this issue, however, is the fact that I don't really feel like the fandom as a whole is as vicious and fanatical as we may appear. I, for one, pick and choose characters I like based on (wait for it) their characterizations. I know I'm not alone in this, but the difference between those of us who judge rationally and those who don't, are the noise they make.

I'm not an avid poster in communities. I don't voice my opinion all that often and tend to glance over the general posting of irritations, bitchings and all around wanking in favor of more interesting things. I'm also guilty of not commenting very often to the fic I read, but that doesn't mean that I don't have strong opinions about what I like and dislike, especially when it comes to the characters.
Knowing this, and recognizing that the odds of me being alone in how i feel are slim to none. it allows me to glance over the misogynistic and ludicrous fan spillings, and -not -use them as a base example to my fandom.

My voice does not reach the press, the writers, the directors or the cast because I don't voice it. Even if I did, those kinds of rationales are more than often swallowed. I see no reason to leap into an argument that will get me nowhere, as do many other silent lurkers. On the other hand, because those who are so loudly opinionated usually do have these tendencies to hate and wank and gang up on others publicly, they are the image that presents itself of -us- as a whole.

Some female characters I like, some I don't. The same works with the male ones. I'm guilty of slashing Dean/Cas, but that doesn't mean I didn't sit there and watch Dean/Anna with a great big grin on my face. The actors aren't their characters, they have relationships and marriages and families that have nothing to do with me or Show, so it's none of my business. Doesn't mean I don't blush and stutter like a moron when I get to meet them in person.

I am not the minority of this fandom; the noiseless are, in fact, the majority. If you look at it this way, the misogynists and the haters and the wankers/whiners are only representing the fandom as a whole because they are the only voices that can be heard. The rest of us, well, we are wisely keeping our peace.

but that's just my opinion X)

[mresundance.livejournal.com]

. . .

Feminists are only human, and, having been raised in a sexist society, are prone to the same pitfalls as anyone. I don't know why we have to prove any more than a sincere desire for change, even if, in the process, we have a lot to learn about how that change can and should take place.

I try not to judge other feminists or try to measure them (more or less feminist), seeing as how people seem to think it's alright for them to determine what makes other people more or less feminist.

It's OT, but I'm actually annoyed by how willingly people question Joss' feminist creds since Dollhouse started. They can't seem to get the notion that creative work which discusses the human experience (and humans are flawed) doesn't necessarily lend itself automatically to a "feminist agenda". I'm a feminist but in my own work it would be an error to kowtow to a strictly feminist agenda, if only because the limitations of feminism create issues, namely, that I'd be lying to my audience about how people can and are sexist jerks, that women and men do buy into sexist ways of thinking and perpetuate sexism, and that sexism is a part of the culture many experience in this world.

Additionally, I wonder if people feel like nitpicking Joss' feminism cuz he's a guy, in a way they rarely nitpick the feminism of someone like Gloria Steinem. (Unless, you sit around with radical feminists all day and let them sermonize until your brain turns to putty. I like radical feminists and sometimes am one, but they can be too intense for prolonged exposure.)

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. Not everyone is a woman-bashing hater in this fandom. This post and the comments are example enough of that. And there are communities where bashing is either unusual or not tolerated (like the capslock ones).

However, it does become problematic when they're the only ones talking - or the only ones being heard. How does the old saying go? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Perhaps the wrong gender and too religious, but the right memo.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

As a self-avowed feminist, I have plenty of issues with Joss' feminism that didn't start with the Dollhouse, though Dollhouse is a *huge* stumbling block for me. (I wrote a meta, This Isn't My Feminist Hat, about my issues with Dollhouse if you want an in-depth look at them.)

I think it's good thing for people to look strongly at Joss's supposed feminism. I've seen plenty of feminist discussion in the SPN fandom regarding Sera Gamble, so I don't think it's a gender thing. I think there are a lot of flaws in Joss's feminism and I've seen those flaws since I watched Buffy and I hesitate to simply write them off as, "Oh, well, the world has sexist jerks."

[marycontraire.livejournal.com]

This is a frustration I've had with this fandom since season two, when the Jo wank erupted. Personally, I love Jo. I was really, really hoping that she would stick around and become a recurring character. Ever since then, I have barely read any fanfiction for this fandom, even though it's clearly the show I'm most fannish-ly involved with. But there are so many communities I feel like I need to avoid because of all of the wank and misogyny.

And Jo is not the only female character I've been disappointed to lose. Whatever happened to Ellen? And I know I'm very alone in thinking this, but I really loved Bela.

It really makes me wonder if there is something unique to the show itself-- to the writing, to the world it has created-- that brings this out in us. Because I don't think that Supernatural fans are by and large people who dislike women on television. I know I will watch and enjoy pretty much any show about girls "kicking ass and taking names"-- Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Veronica Mars, Firefly, The Sarah Connor Chronicles. I love seeing strong women on television. I love seeing girls kick guys' asses.

It's old news that Supernatural, as a show, is very much an exploration of masculinity, and what it means to "be a man," particularly in the United States of America. If the Winchester boys are the answer to that question, masculinity seems to involve physical violence and a lot of guns, being able to fix your own car, taking care of your family at all costs, and, apparently, drinking away your nightmares instead of talking about them. I think Supernatural tries to show us both the good and bad side of living up to America's masculine ideal. But where do women fit into this hyper-masculine world? And do we want them to?