Thinking Thoughts

[chasingtides]

So theoretically I'm reading Jorge Luis Borges at the moment, but I still have my Mongolian and Sami research bouncing around my skull and trying to find a monster of the week to put in my lgbtfest entry. My brain's all over the place.

When does something become cultural appropriation? When is something culturally yours to begin with? Where are the lines?

(To note, I have a vague idea of what is culturally "mine." It's a fairly limited group, but I've been told by others that there are things that are culturally mine that I don't think are - and vice versa. I'm also interested in seeing where people think the line is - when are you stealing someone else's culture and when are you drawing on it?)

I suppose this could be in any life aspect - religiously (I know this comes up in the pagan community), in art or writing, in lifestyle (with the stereotypical weeabo coming up). Thoughts?


As an unrelated addendum: It's snowing like anything here. It was 60F yesterday. I'd better not have my classes called off because of snow.

Comments

[maccaj.livejournal.com]

When does something become cultural appropriation? When is something culturally yours to begin with? Where are the lines?

These are questions I struggle with a lot. Disabled is my culture - I was born disabled, that's mine to claim. Midwestern is my culture, too... same thing.

But Irish is my culture too - I am legitimately Irish by blood, and if my family had emigrated literally one generation later, I could claim Irish citizenship. But they didn't, so I'm Famine Irish, and, largely as a result of being Famine Irish, I've never set foot there - can't afford it.

Irish-American doesn't fit... say Irish-American and people instantly think green beer and leprechauns.

But on the same hand, I would never claim to be Irish-born.

The closest term I have to put to *that* aspect of my culture is to call myself "ex-pat raised", which is true, and ex-pat is a culture of its own... I'm more "ex-pat" than American, due to how and where and by whom I've been raised. But I'm not an *actual* expat, so that's a whole other conundrum.

I still don't know the answer to any of this, obviously.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I never had a problem with saying Irish-American until I left my Irish-Catholic bubble in central Massachusetts for college. There was a point where I was literally almost in tears when my ex decided to host a "St Patrick's Day Party" and I was the only person with Irish blood. To say that it was a deeply unpleasant day is an understatement. And that was very much not my culture.

[maccaj.livejournal.com]

exactly.

Further thoughts (I'm kind of scattered tonight)...

I would never claim to be Irish born because I'm *not*. To me, that's where the line is. I know people who can't wait to tell others how "Irish" they are, and it turns out they weren't born there, never lived there, and know little to nothing about Ireland, its history, its people, or its culture... they just know that somewhere, at some point, they came from Ireland, and that's enough, to them, to justify calling themselves Irish, full-stop. To me, calling yourself Irish when you weren't born there and haven't lived there long enough to understand what that means, is crossing the line. Calling yourself Irish when you weren't born there, never lived there, *and* don't give a damn enough to even try to understand what that means is even worse, imo... principally because people who never bother to care are the ones who use "Irish" or "Irish-American" as a reason to do stupid things or drink, because that's "Irish" to them. Those people never seem to *mean* to insult their own culture, but they do nonetheless.

On the other hand, I have friends who aren't Irish at all, but are deeply interested and feel some sort of "pull" to it, for one reason or another. I think as long as those people are respectful, and genuinely interested, that's fine, even a good thing. The Irish even have a term for people like that - "Irish enough." Meaning, essentially, you may or may not be Irish by blood or by birth, but by *their* estimation - not your own - you are "Irish in spirit" and thus "legitimately" Irish.

So I think when you're interested in a culture that you weren't born into, the key is to recognize that it's for the people *of* that culture to decide whether you're "____ enough," or whether you're just interested in one aspect of that culture, be it pub food or anime.

And being interested in only one or two aspects of a culture is fine, too... it's just not enough to make you a full member of that culture, as defined by the people who are already of it.

Of course, the whole issue gets muddied quite a bit by things like paganism, which has fractured into many movements and which no longer has any surviving single way to do things, and by people being interested in historical civilizations and such... obviously, in those cases, there are no surviving people of the original culture to ask. But I think the same general principle applies... acknowleging that pull, and that that pull is valid and that one is entitled to have it, but also being aware that no amount of knowledge can make you the cultural equal to someone who actually lived in that place and time. Very close to equal, potentially... but not equal. No matter how many pagan reconstructionists claim otherwise... that's why even *they* have to call it *re*construction. :)

[subordinate.livejournal.com]

I think cultural appropriation is something that really should be paid more attention to in general.

Honestly, and this may be an unpopular opinion outside the social activist circles that I'm accustomed to, but I think most Americans can only safely claim general American culture as theirs 100% of the time. Individuals can, of course, claim religion and cultural heritage, but it's always a good idea to respect people who are currently members of that heritage themselves in ways that you specifically aren't as having more cultural clout, if you will. I'm thinking of the white ethnic heritages on this one. Being ethnically Irish or Italian or Polish or Russian or what have you is obviously not the same thing as being currently a person who was born/raised in Ireland, Italy, etc. I'm thinking of Irish cultural appropriation specifically, because I know plenty of raised-in-Ireland Irish who get pissed about 2nd/3rd generation Irish-Americans who get very involved with St. Patrick's Day, for instance, but I know this applies to many other ethnic white identities.

I think appropriation is very interesting but obviously very problematic. People should definitely feel free to explore cultures, learn other languages, visit different countries and demographics, etc. People should do this as much as they can, actually. But there's a huge difference between a white person from the suburbs who decides to emulate hip hop culture vs. a white person from the suburbs who decides to read up on race theory, for instance, you know?

I think some people get annoyed at appropriation when it's obvious it's only a skin deep faddish interest. People's cultures, races, religions, etc. should not be mere fodder for fandom or that kind of exotic other-ing.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I agree with this a lot. I've often described myself as being a part of Irish-Catholic culture in America rather than as Irish-American. It doesn't always work, obviously, but it often helps keep the "So you drink a lot?" questions at bay. (And that *is* the culture that I know - Irish-Catholic in America.)

On the other hand, I've been told I have culture that I don't. Just because I am white and from New England doesn't mean that I have the same culture as, say, the Anglo Protestants who might be my neighbors. (I don't actually know my neighbors, but there's a good chance that they're Anglo and Protestant, given where I live.) However, I've been told (by people who don't live around here, obviously) that I clearly have the same culture. By our standards however, we would have two different cultures that would be foreign to one another.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

If we're thinking of the same Irish appropriation, it also makes a lot of Irish-Americans upset, too. (If you want, I can tell the story of the St Patrick's Day party that ended with me almost in tears and ready to lock myself in a closet. That was not my culture - as an Irish-American - at all.) However, I would argue that, at least in some areas, that white ethnicities do have different cultures. I would argue that my culture is different from that of, say, my Italian-American friends. We eat different foods, celebrate holidays differently, behave differently with family and friends.

I guess what I'm asking is - what if I'm from the suburbs and like hip-hop? What do I do then? Should I pretend that I don't like it because I'm white and from the suburbs and shouldn't like hip-hop? Or is there another avenue that isn't appropriation?

[subordinate.livejournal.com]

re: hip-hop -- no, not at all. Liking hip-hop is totally awesome. Pretending you are "street" because you like hip-hop is a whole other thing. Denying who you are, and your own reality, and taking on the identity of another minority group, is the problem. Generally, people have a problem with stuff like this if a person emulates only the surface trappings -- clothing, demeanor, language, food, etc. -- without bothering to educate themselves about anything behind the scenes, or deferring at all to the demographic that the specific art is speaking for and catering to. Then you become a cultural "tourist," and that's offensive to people, I think.

It really is mostly a matter of not pretending to be an expert in a culture when faced with someone who IS a member of that culture, I think. Like, with weeaboos, what is so gross is that some of them don't get that it doesn't matter how much Japanese they learn, or how much Japanese culture they consume (be it pop culture or more, even), or even if they DO arguably know "more" about some Japanese history than some arbitrary actual Japanese person -- they still AREN'T Japanese. The faddishness, the frenzied fandom thing about an entire cultural demographic, it's just -- at the very least -- kind of bizarre.

re: the Irish-American example: OHHH yeah, ethnic American-born whites can get pissed about other Americans appropriating their culture too, no question. I consider myself an "ethnic" American white myself. But that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend I'm a person of color, for instance, or a "minority" who can 100% relate to what it's like to live in a racist society, or that this gives me some kind of carte blanche about appropriation issues, etc. This also doesn't mean that I can't appropriate "my own" culture if I'm not careful (and this is the point I was making about the raised-in-Ireland vs. Irish-by-several-removed-generation problem). Ways to appropriate my own culture would be to deny the reality that even my own heritage means different things to different cultures in different countries from different times, etc. (Like, I'm Jewish, but I'm not going to pretend I understand what it's like to suffer from antisemitism to, say, a Holocaust survivor, or what it's like to be visually marked as an "other" to someone who is Chasidic, or act like Jewish identity means the same thing to me, who grew up in Los Angeles, as it means to someone who grew up in Wyoming, or Israel, or Spain, etc.) This is all stuff I've seen people do that is kind of wtf, to me.

[maccaj.livejournal.com]

I agree.

Speaking only of Irish culture (cause that's what I'm familiar with), though, there's also a huge difference between an Irish-American who defines Irish-American as "drinks a lot on St. Patrick's Day," and an Irish-American raised in the ex-pat community, who may never have set foot in Ireland, but for whom St. Patrick's Day is a day to go to a specific Irish ex-pat owned pub, have a meal with ex-pats and their kids, and have an ex-pat priest give a homily about being Irish in America and being grateful for that - which is what *I* grew up with and still practice, even though I'm Irish-American and four generations removed.

That's why I don't like, and don't usually use, the term Irish-American... because that term in particular tends to mean "American of Irish descent who may or may not know what that means, nor care," whereas to me, my heritage is a huge part of my life, and an *active* part of my life - I've never in my 27 years *not* celebrated a holiday with my local ex-pat community, and my way of unwinding at uni was to go to the local ceilis. Yet there's no real term for someone who's American by birth, truly identifies with their heritage, *isn't* terribly American by culture (there's more ex-pat culture in me than American culture... I've never celebrated a fourth of July, and my Thanksgiving is spent with ex-pats, eating prawns and scotch eggs and trying to explain to them why the shops are all closed) but doesn't claim (and in fact would not dare to be as presumptuous as to claim) to be Irish-born. I've always felt like I'm in cultural limbo in that respect... I'm not Irish-born, and American traditions often feel alien, but I'm not an acutal ex-pat either, though I have in large part been raised by/with them.

[maccaj.livejournal.com]

yes.

I have that problem with people who decide that because I've spent 21 years in the south, I must be southern. I'm not. I'll never be. I was born in the Midwest, and any American culture that I do claim (as I say below, much of mainstream American culture feels fairly alien to me, which I guess is what happens when 80% of one's social circle is ex-pats)... but any American culture that I *do* claim is decidedly Midwestern. Beyond that, some of it is specific to Michigan - polish roses, Lake Michigan, people in blue collar workshirts with the sewn on nametags working at Butternut bakery. Union workers, hashbrowns with breakfast, smelt fishing, deer season. That's the American stuff I know, and all of that is very, very foreign to Southerners - as foreign to them as I find grits on my plate to be foreign.

Yet, no matter how often I explain this to people, they insist that 21 of my 27 years were spent in the south, ergo, I'm southern. It's crazymaking.

[altersonality.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I'm culturally disabled, though some who were born disabled may think otherwise. I became disabled at four and a half, yet disability is all I really know.

Being from California is also my culture. I will always, always, be a "California girl" no matter how long I've lived in the Northwest.

But there are other cultures with which I feel a strong pull. Jewish culture, Scottish culture, and everything Canadian. The latter is where my maternal grandmother was born and my ancestors lived for generations.

It's all very blurred once a person identifies the culture(s) that contributed to their formative years. Beyond that, I just...don't know. Some cultures pull at me more than others, regardless of whether a personal history exists. But that in no way means I can claim it as "my" culture.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

And then of course, there are those of us who do both. You just described my St. Patrick's Day down to a T (and why I had trouble at college when I was the only person I knew who culturally identified the way I did), though I also do American holidays as well (though, admittedly, often in our own little way and dissimilarly from our friends who are culturally different). There aren't really words for that - I would say that the way we act (re:Irish) is respectful (as in, no one is saying we're from Ireland and no one is drinking green beer), but I agree that Irish-American has other connotations.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

As someone who became disabled around the age of five or six, I can agree with you on the "disability is all I really know" aspect. I hear family stories about how I was before - that I would beat out my brother and our friends at races and that you couldn't keep me from climbing trees or playing baseball - but they're just stories to me. I don't actually remember much of that, if anything. (There's that line where memory and imagination blend.)

What do you mean by "California culture," if I might ask?

The reason I ask is this: I'm born and raised in Massachusetts (with a brief stint in Georgia). However, I consider myself to have a different culture than perhaps the Anglo-Protestants who were my neighbours. (For example, for me, growing up Catholic was an important part of the culture - Catholic school, no meat on Friday, giving up for Lent, etc.) I would be more similar to them than I might be to, say, Polish-Catholics from Texas, but I still wouldn't call it the same. Does that make sense?

[maccaj.livejournal.com]

oh, exactly. I think that's why the term hits me so wrong, as a *term*... because there are a million different ways to be Irish-American, most of which are respectful, but popular culture has sort of stolen that particular term to the point where it's perfectly acceptable to be "Irish for a day", where that phrase means "dye rivers green and drink yourself unconscious"... so when *I* say "Irish-American," or when *you* say "Irish-American," we really mean something by it... but neither of our ideas about it match the popular cultural perception of the term, outside of a heavily Irish Catholic neighborhood.

[altersonality.livejournal.com]

I hear family stories about how I was before

Same here. I've heard stories of trees climbed and what they think I would've been. I do have one memory of playing soccer, but it's just a snippet of a movie in my head. I have no physical memory of walking.

What do you mean by "California culture," if I might ask?

Kind of difficult to put into words. Now that I think about it, California culture is different throughout the state, but for me it's warm days, swimming, and, this may sound amusing, being accustomed and expecting earthquakes.

For example, my brother went college in Santa Barbara for a bit and was there when the Northridge quake hit. The quake didn't even wake him up - we often slept through quakes when we were kids. That is part of our culture, part of our experience growing up.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I know we talked a while ago, but one thing you said has been niggling at the back of my brain. What did you mean when you said, "No matter how many pagan reconstructionists claim otherwise... that's why even *they* have to call it *re*construction?"

As a pagan who believes in reconstructionism and worshiping some of the Irish deities, I admit to being baffled by this. In my time in the community, I've not seen anyone try to claim that they were Irish-from-Ireland. We worship, as best we can, in the ways that the pre-Christian Irish once did - much as the Asatru do with the Norse gods and practices.

[maccaj.livejournal.com]

I wasn't bashing reconstructionism in the least - I have pagan leanings myself. My point was that paganism as practiced right now, today, is very different from paganism that was practiced 2050 years ago. Peoples have changed, language has changed, *life* has changed, and, sadly, many things about paganism as originally practiced have been lost to history. So, pagans today (including myself) have *re* constructed it. We take what we know and we make educated guesses about the rest. It's all we *can* do.

My "no matter how many claim otherwise" was in reference to the staggering number of pagans I see who will claim to the fucking *death* that the way they do [something] is "more pagan" or "the real way" or "the original way" versus the way someone else does something being "wrong". Granted, most of this kind of person doesn't seem to stick with paganism long. And I'm not talking about getting a god's name wrong... I'm talking about the people who will absolutely lose it if your ritual for X differs from their ritual for X, and their argument is "Well, HISTORICALLY, the pagans did it MY way.".... because that's (usually) impossible to prove, and really not worth getting worked up over.

Make sense?

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I figured it would be something like that. It's one of the reasons that I (generally) like the reconstructionist community. Because (again, generally) there's acknowledgment that we're doing our best and there are many interpretations of the evidence we have and we are deviating in many ways (what with living in a modern world), there does seem to be less "You're doing it WRONG because you disagree with me." (And there's a lot less of the "And Bridghid is a mother-maiden-crone goddess who was worshiped in medieval Sicily.")

(Admittedly, I'm more of the nonfluffypagans school of thought than anything else, religiously speaking, which, admittedly, isn't to everyone's taste. However, I tend to describe it as a "use your common sense" take on paganism - of course, being opposed to willful ignorance. It tends to put me in a specific place when I interact with people online in terms of paganism.)