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So, anyone who pays any attention at all to Supernatural canon or fandom knows that incest is part of the package deal. We get an awesome soundtrack, a kick-ass car, supernatural bad guys, and incestuous (or vaguely incestuous) heroes. It's all good. It's why we're here. (Actually, I'm mostly here because of the music and the car, but the mythology and the incest keep cropping up.)
Now, to recap: Bugs (1.08) is, I believe, the first time anyone thinks that the boys are sleeping together (that we see on screen). Sam and Dean are informed, several times, that the housing complex is welcoming to people of all sexual orientations. And then Dean slaps Sam's ass and calls him honey. This pattern continues. In Something Wicked (1.18), Michael, the young boy at the motel, asks the now famous question, "Two queens or a king?" and then, when Dean responds, "Two queens," says, "Sure, I'll bet." In Playthings (2.11), Susan asks if they're antiquing and Sherman, the bellboy, shares this assumption. Dean can't imagine why everyone thinks they're gay, but Sam suggests, "Well, you are kind of butch. Maybe they think you're overcompensating." In A Very Supernatural Christmas (3.08), Dean and Sam pose as a gay couple when inquiring about Christmas wreaths. In Lazarus Rising (4.01), we get more of this. Pamela offers to have a threesome with Sam and Dean and Kristy (Ruby?) asks, "So, are you two, like, together?" ("What? No, no, he's my brother." "Oh, I got it... I guess.")
I'm going to disappoint everyone in fandom before I get any further and say that I don't think Sam and Dean are having crazy, mad, incestuous sex. Really, I don't. And that's not what this meta is about.
However, after talking this over with several people, I do think they're romantically involved with one another and that is, arguably, a form of incest. They are, I argue, romantically involved with one another to the exclusion of romantic involvement with others.
Romance, you say, in my Supernatural? It's more likely than you think.
For one, there's the romance of Dean's pendant. Dean doesn't take it off and views it as a violation when it is removed from him (Skin, 1.06). We learn that it was a gift from Sam, originally intended for John (A Very Supernatural Christmas, 3.08). When Dean dies, Sam won't even let it be buried with Dean's body and, instead, wears it next to his skin (Lazarus Rising, 4.01). Upon Dean's return to life, Sam gives it back and Dean is pleased that Sam has been keeping it safe.
When one can't sleep, the other tends to keep watch and look after the first's sleep habits. When Sam has nightmares after Jessica's death, Dean is always there, ready to help him out. On the few occasions Dean has had sleeping troubles, Sam has been there for him. When Sam had his visions, Dean was always there, ready to hold him and help him and talk him through it and help him save people. (This is important, considering that Dean is suspicious of everything he can't fully comprehend, including angels.)
Sam gives up his dreams of a normal life - or adjusts his life dreams - for Dean. While he does initially return to hunting to avenge Jessica's death, he, at first, makes it clear that he wants to go back to his normal life when the Yellow Eyed Demon (Azazel) is dead. However, when Dean shoots Azazel with the Colt, Sam continues to hunt. Even after Dean's death (both in Mystery Spot, 3.11, and No Rest for the Wicked, 3.16), he continues to hunt. His life plans have adjusted to include Dean's.
They have trouble living without one another. Normally this is described as codependence, which it is to a certain extent, but it can also be viewed as a form of devoted romance. They, by the end of season two, cannot bear to be parted. When they are forcibly separated, bad things happen. The most obvious examples are, of course, the deaths of Sam and Dean. Dean can't imagine a world without Sam. That is a world in which he cannot bear living. Sam, as we see in Mystery Spot (3.11) and Lazarus Rising (4.01), shuts down into a sort of unemotional trauma victim. But, even beyond that, when they are still alive separation is difficult. In Sin City (3.04), Sam completely freaks out when Dean disappears with the possessed woman and in The Magnificent Seven (3.01), Sam refuses Dean's fairly rational offer of saving Sam and Bobby and sacrificing his already doomed self.
As Bobby tells them in Tall Tales (2.15), Sam and Dean are like an old married couple. They argue; they fight; they have their differences. Sam has demon blood. Dean was chosen by angels. Yet, they cannot imagine life or the world without one another. Even after separation, death, or hell, they move as a unit. They save each other. They manfully share their lives. While they both have sexual encounters with various women on the road, they don't need someone else emotionally. Sam doesn't, as far as I can tell as a viewer, long for the comfort and pleasure of having a long-term relationship with someone anymore. Dean, in my eyes, hasn't desired that since the beginning of the series. The romance is in the little things, like in any relationship. The food they buy. The car. The hugs. The fact that they're apparently named after a married couple.
Now, you say, that's all very lovely, but why talk about this now?
Last night, I watched In the Beginning (4.03) rather than look at Palin's face, like many other Supernatural fans. And while I do stand by my theory that the angel or demons are not the same as the bodies they possess, the incestuous overtones of this episode is undeniable. So let's analyse it.
It begins, for me, not in the Marty McFly dinner, but after Samuel has been possessed by Azazel.
Samuel has pinned Dean, in the chair to the wall, and asks, "Oh, hey, if that slug (slut?) marries your mommy, are you one of my psychic kids?" He then leans over Dean and proceeds to smell him up. I was half expecting to see Mitch Pileggi's tongue licking Dean's neck. (And not because I'm a sick fuck. That scene is creepy.) This is the body, at least, of Dean's grandfather, sniffing him up and pinning him to the wall and covering him with his body. Also, Samuel's not dead yet, so Grandpa gets to know all of this.
Check it out:
Azazel-as-Samuel then pontificates as to why he's hanging around Lawrence, Kansas in 1973 instead of slaughtering goats on the Arabian Peninsula (blah blah Master Race blah blah). He then explains, "They're ideal breeders. Oh, get your mind out of the gutter. No one's breeding with me. Though Mary? Man! I'd like to make an exception. So far, she's my favorite."
Okay. I get that this is Azazel talking and Samuel probably doesn't want to jump his daughter. While Samuel and Mary seem to have their issues, it doesn't seem like incest is one of them. However, Azazel is using Samuel's body to explain to Samuel's grandson that he'd like to breed with Mary, Samuel's daughter and Dean's mother. I don't care how you spin it, that's deeply wrong. If Azazel bones Mary using Samuel that is, still, a form of incest. Potentially non-consenual incest on both parts? Ewwww.
After Azazel-as-Samuel breaks John's neck and argues a bit with a distressed Mary (a tableau that looks very similar to Dean holding Sam's body at the end of season two), he offers her, "Let's kiss and make up." And then that's just what they do. Azazel-as-Samuel is kissing Samuel's daughter. I do realise that demons kiss to seal deals, but the kiss Dean shared with the Cross Roads Demons was significantly less intense than the one shared between Mary and Azazel-as-Samuel.
Dean is clearly horrified, realising at last that his mother made a deal (and made out with Grandpa):
Now, I haven't been able to come to any clear conclusions about what all of the incest means in this show. It is there and I don't think that it is just a case of fans seeing what they want to see. I've been making jokes about incest being a family value for the Campbell-Winchesters, but there is a point here. There's incest and it's here for all to see.
Chekov's gun states, "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired." This pistol hasn't just been hanging on the wall since the first act, people have been commenting on what a nice pistol it is since then. And last night, someone took the pistol off the wall, played with it, and put it back up there. I don't know what it means, but I'm going to be mighty interested to see this particular pistol fire.
ETA: I am clearly losing my mind, because I missed a major line of incest. Dean/Mary. Dean thinks his mom is hot, vocalises it, and thinks that Sam would share his point of view. ("Sam, wherever you are, Mom is hot. And I'm going to hell... again.") While this is a very true fact - Amy Gumenick is gorgeous - Dean, though he clearly realises this is a 'wrong' thought, doesn't seem to be terribly bothered by the fact that he finds his own mother attractive. This deserves more thought.
Now, to recap: Bugs (1.08) is, I believe, the first time anyone thinks that the boys are sleeping together (that we see on screen). Sam and Dean are informed, several times, that the housing complex is welcoming to people of all sexual orientations. And then Dean slaps Sam's ass and calls him honey. This pattern continues. In Something Wicked (1.18), Michael, the young boy at the motel, asks the now famous question, "Two queens or a king?" and then, when Dean responds, "Two queens," says, "Sure, I'll bet." In Playthings (2.11), Susan asks if they're antiquing and Sherman, the bellboy, shares this assumption. Dean can't imagine why everyone thinks they're gay, but Sam suggests, "Well, you are kind of butch. Maybe they think you're overcompensating." In A Very Supernatural Christmas (3.08), Dean and Sam pose as a gay couple when inquiring about Christmas wreaths. In Lazarus Rising (4.01), we get more of this. Pamela offers to have a threesome with Sam and Dean and Kristy (Ruby?) asks, "So, are you two, like, together?" ("What? No, no, he's my brother." "Oh, I got it... I guess.")
I'm going to disappoint everyone in fandom before I get any further and say that I don't think Sam and Dean are having crazy, mad, incestuous sex. Really, I don't. And that's not what this meta is about.
However, after talking this over with several people, I do think they're romantically involved with one another and that is, arguably, a form of incest. They are, I argue, romantically involved with one another to the exclusion of romantic involvement with others.
Romance, you say, in my Supernatural? It's more likely than you think.
For one, there's the romance of Dean's pendant. Dean doesn't take it off and views it as a violation when it is removed from him (Skin, 1.06). We learn that it was a gift from Sam, originally intended for John (A Very Supernatural Christmas, 3.08). When Dean dies, Sam won't even let it be buried with Dean's body and, instead, wears it next to his skin (Lazarus Rising, 4.01). Upon Dean's return to life, Sam gives it back and Dean is pleased that Sam has been keeping it safe.
When one can't sleep, the other tends to keep watch and look after the first's sleep habits. When Sam has nightmares after Jessica's death, Dean is always there, ready to help him out. On the few occasions Dean has had sleeping troubles, Sam has been there for him. When Sam had his visions, Dean was always there, ready to hold him and help him and talk him through it and help him save people. (This is important, considering that Dean is suspicious of everything he can't fully comprehend, including angels.)
Sam gives up his dreams of a normal life - or adjusts his life dreams - for Dean. While he does initially return to hunting to avenge Jessica's death, he, at first, makes it clear that he wants to go back to his normal life when the Yellow Eyed Demon (Azazel) is dead. However, when Dean shoots Azazel with the Colt, Sam continues to hunt. Even after Dean's death (both in Mystery Spot, 3.11, and No Rest for the Wicked, 3.16), he continues to hunt. His life plans have adjusted to include Dean's.
They have trouble living without one another. Normally this is described as codependence, which it is to a certain extent, but it can also be viewed as a form of devoted romance. They, by the end of season two, cannot bear to be parted. When they are forcibly separated, bad things happen. The most obvious examples are, of course, the deaths of Sam and Dean. Dean can't imagine a world without Sam. That is a world in which he cannot bear living. Sam, as we see in Mystery Spot (3.11) and Lazarus Rising (4.01), shuts down into a sort of unemotional trauma victim. But, even beyond that, when they are still alive separation is difficult. In Sin City (3.04), Sam completely freaks out when Dean disappears with the possessed woman and in The Magnificent Seven (3.01), Sam refuses Dean's fairly rational offer of saving Sam and Bobby and sacrificing his already doomed self.
As Bobby tells them in Tall Tales (2.15), Sam and Dean are like an old married couple. They argue; they fight; they have their differences. Sam has demon blood. Dean was chosen by angels. Yet, they cannot imagine life or the world without one another. Even after separation, death, or hell, they move as a unit. They save each other. They manfully share their lives. While they both have sexual encounters with various women on the road, they don't need someone else emotionally. Sam doesn't, as far as I can tell as a viewer, long for the comfort and pleasure of having a long-term relationship with someone anymore. Dean, in my eyes, hasn't desired that since the beginning of the series. The romance is in the little things, like in any relationship. The food they buy. The car. The hugs. The fact that they're apparently named after a married couple.
Now, you say, that's all very lovely, but why talk about this now?
Last night, I watched In the Beginning (4.03) rather than look at Palin's face, like many other Supernatural fans. And while I do stand by my theory that the angel or demons are not the same as the bodies they possess, the incestuous overtones of this episode is undeniable. So let's analyse it.
It begins, for me, not in the Marty McFly dinner, but after Samuel has been possessed by Azazel.
Samuel has pinned Dean, in the chair to the wall, and asks, "Oh, hey, if that slug (slut?) marries your mommy, are you one of my psychic kids?" He then leans over Dean and proceeds to smell him up. I was half expecting to see Mitch Pileggi's tongue licking Dean's neck. (And not because I'm a sick fuck. That scene is creepy.) This is the body, at least, of Dean's grandfather, sniffing him up and pinning him to the wall and covering him with his body. Also, Samuel's not dead yet, so Grandpa gets to know all of this.
Check it out:
Azazel-as-Samuel then pontificates as to why he's hanging around Lawrence, Kansas in 1973 instead of slaughtering goats on the Arabian Peninsula (blah blah Master Race blah blah). He then explains, "They're ideal breeders. Oh, get your mind out of the gutter. No one's breeding with me. Though Mary? Man! I'd like to make an exception. So far, she's my favorite."
Okay. I get that this is Azazel talking and Samuel probably doesn't want to jump his daughter. While Samuel and Mary seem to have their issues, it doesn't seem like incest is one of them. However, Azazel is using Samuel's body to explain to Samuel's grandson that he'd like to breed with Mary, Samuel's daughter and Dean's mother. I don't care how you spin it, that's deeply wrong. If Azazel bones Mary using Samuel that is, still, a form of incest. Potentially non-consenual incest on both parts? Ewwww.
After Azazel-as-Samuel breaks John's neck and argues a bit with a distressed Mary (a tableau that looks very similar to Dean holding Sam's body at the end of season two), he offers her, "Let's kiss and make up." And then that's just what they do. Azazel-as-Samuel is kissing Samuel's daughter. I do realise that demons kiss to seal deals, but the kiss Dean shared with the Cross Roads Demons was significantly less intense than the one shared between Mary and Azazel-as-Samuel.
Dean is clearly horrified, realising at last that his mother made a deal (and made out with Grandpa):
Now, I haven't been able to come to any clear conclusions about what all of the incest means in this show. It is there and I don't think that it is just a case of fans seeing what they want to see. I've been making jokes about incest being a family value for the Campbell-Winchesters, but there is a point here. There's incest and it's here for all to see.
Chekov's gun states, "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired." This pistol hasn't just been hanging on the wall since the first act, people have been commenting on what a nice pistol it is since then. And last night, someone took the pistol off the wall, played with it, and put it back up there. I don't know what it means, but I'm going to be mighty interested to see this particular pistol fire.
ETA: I am clearly losing my mind, because I missed a major line of incest. Dean/Mary. Dean thinks his mom is hot, vocalises it, and thinks that Sam would share his point of view. ("Sam, wherever you are, Mom is hot. And I'm going to hell... again.") While this is a very true fact - Amy Gumenick is gorgeous - Dean, though he clearly realises this is a 'wrong' thought, doesn't seem to be terribly bothered by the fact that he finds his own mother attractive. This deserves more thought.
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From:
no subject
In the beginning Kripke and the writers gave us some funny gay jokes because, to be honest, it is not the normal thing to travel around with your bro and to share practically everything. They share the same room, brush their teeth together, they are much more like an old couple for me but an old couple which doesn't have sex. I swear I tried reading wincest, I'm reading slash now for 10 years but it never worked for me. Maybe also because I have a brother and it's just a disgusting thought for me. It's too unrealistic to become physical love. As I said before, the writers added some jokes, then it somehow got out of hand. Manners is most probably still forwarding wincesty fics to everyone on set, Jim Beaver keeps wearing weird t-shirts and even Kripke now calls it „bromance“(which made me shriek, I can't laugh atm since I have a terrible influenza and my thoughts are completely jumbled, hooray!). In a way bromance really sums it up. SPN's appeal is Sam and Dean's relationship (I also blame the actors for it). And Kripke knows it even if he started the show with a different premise.
What works really well are the demonic possessions. Whether it was John, Sam or Samuel ... and I just realized that Dean is totally victimized here lol Don't we just love him pinned to a wall or a chair? Anyways, the only slash fics which work for me, apart from the demon ones, is J2. I just hate to admit it but sometimes I wished they would stop playing around with the wincest undertones in real life. Can they not be a little more subtle about it? They are feeding the fans and I feel so overweight and can hardly digest that they are living together or take care of each other's eyelashes ... adds also fuel to the wincest fire :P
Thank God they have added Castiel ... now Sam needs a male demon for himself.
From:
no subject
It seems, to me, that you're saying that you think the slash out there is mostly because people see them being emo on screen, but the incest factor squicks you because you have a brother. So you'd prefer to read RPS or Winchester/demon.
The incest in SPN doesn't quick me as much as in some other fandoms, I suppose because I view it as entirely consensual. Neither Sam nor Dean would assault or abuse the other. They would kill themselves first. I'm not concerned about that aspect. (And yes, before you ask, I do have brother. We have in fact been mistaken for a couple on several occasions, but no, never ever ever incestuous.)
I don't think it's fairly to blame the emotional incest of Sam and Dean on the actors. The writers write them this way and the directors direct them this way. This is definitely a team effort. You can't say, "Well, the actors are affectionate so the other characters in the show make jokes about them being gay and there are incestuous overtones in their language and attitude." The actors don't write the scripts. I also feel that what happens in the show and what happens in actors' lives can and should be kept separate. Whether the actors are living together, married, or can't stand each other, we should, in my opinion, take their characters as their characters, not as the people who they present themselves as in the media.
While I have written other meta on RPS (here), I do actually have serious squick issues with demonic (or angelic) sex. As we saw in Are You There God? It's Me, Dean Winchester, the possessed are still in their bodies and can experience what happens to their bodies even though they have no agency. This means that they cannot consent to the sex that they would be experiencing should the demon/angel possessing their body choose to have sex. This makes it rape. Rape, for me, is a much bigger squick than consensual incest EVER could be. Forcing someone to have sex against their will? Deeply disturbing.
Edit: Outside of the possessed/rape issue upon which I know some disagree, Sam, should he desire to have sex with a demon, does have Ruby and we did see her in a state of undress in the premiere. Who is to say that he could not have sex with her? Why would it need to be a male demon?
From:
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The incest doesn't squick me mainly because I also have a sibling. It's just that unconditional love does not always result in sex, especially in families. I think that platonic love involves many aspects society associates traditionally with romance (like self-sacrifice). However, I just cannot see Sam and Dean ever crossing this line because they in fact love each other. It would hurt them more than give them any comfort. I really read a lot of wincest and everything was way too emotionally unrealistic, too angsty or too schmoopy. I never really saw the right emotional state for them to have sex in the first place and to enjoy it without guilt. What I can see is gen h/c though.
As I said before, there are lots of factors which turn these two characters into a perfect bait for slash authors. Of course the guys creating our media know about slash or fanfic. It's not like we are still passing zines by snail mail and hide. We are a small group they don't know how to handle but they know we exist (see all those conventions where they keep mentioning fanfic). Kripke, Manners etc. most probably are half disturbed and half amused by it all and give us something to chew on every once in a while. The fact that Jensen and Jared are getting along so great is also shown on screen. I think if they'd hated each other we surely would perceive the show differently.
Usually fans hardly distinguish between actors or their characters. In a way actors, real life celebs, are not that different from fictional characters because they are so far away from us and we do not know them personally. They are shiny fairytales, dreams. So yes, it also influences each other, we might mix it up. RPS usually lives off the bits and pieces we get fed by the press every day or how we perceive the actors' behaviour on screen. I kind of had to separated RPS in this case because I didn't enjoy reading wincest. However, since both actors are making fun of the whole wincest stuff (which is the only normal reaction) the RPS seems to write itself. It's almost funny.
I admit I like reading rape fics. It's very cathartic for me if it is written well (I was assaulted as a child). I guess fanfic always was a catharsis for me and that's why I started hiding in it for some years. I just like reading emotional fanfic. I understand it's not every one's cup of tea, just as mine is not wincest because it doesn't give me anything I seek in a good fic, like an emotion I can relate to. That's the great thing about fanfic, there's so much out there, so many flavours and surely you can find something you like or what you need at a certain point of time in your life.
btw with demon possessions work I meant that rape fics in this cases makes sense. To be possessed is already mind rape. The fanfic is logical for me, much more logical than wincest ever could be for me.
About your edit: Actually I was just referring to giving Sam another male slash partner who is not his brother ;)
Maybe I'm still a bit unintelligible but I really feel quite bad atm and should actually stay in bed *groan* I haven't really analyzed slash or RPS in years (you get sick of it after writing a thesis about it lol).