(![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
chasingtides Sep. 20th, 2008 12:38 am)
chasingtides Sep. 20th, 2008 12:38 am)I am going to open this meta with the statement that I am, probably, likely to be considered a violent person. I hit things. And people. Usually with my cane, Niccolo Machiavelli. I also throw things. And like shooting my compound bow. And hitting things.
I like Dean a lot. Probably, partially, because he also hits things.
Now, I've seen around the internet that it seems that a lot of people don't like Dean hitting things. They say that he likes to pick on women. That's he's mean to women. That he's written as a misogynist.
Well, thinks I, I am not so sure about that. I hit women, but I don't think of myself as a misogynist for a variety of reasons, but partially because I also hit men.
So, I decided to analyze exactly who Dean hits in Lazarus Rising.
If we set aside the opening montage of season three as irrelevant to this meta and focus upon Dean's acts of personal violence against others, we can look at four separate incidents of such personal violence in Lazarus Rising. The first is Dean's fist/knife fight with Bobby; the second, his fist/knife fight with Sam; the third, his slapping of the possessed waitress; and the fourth, his attack upon the angel Castiel.
Bobby, as Dean expresses in this self-same episode, is the closest thing Dean has to a father. Presumably, this works the other way (and I am taking a cue from Bobby's new drinking habit as well) and Bobby feels that Sam and Dean are the closest things he has to sons. As he said so eloquently in the finale of the third season, "Family don't end with blood, boy." And yet despite this - or perhaps because of it, for who would not be startled and afraid to see a loved one arise from the grave - the first thing he does when he sees Dean is attack him with a knife. Dean responds in kind, returning the fight with his fists. This continues until Dean has wrested the knife from Bobby and purposefully cuts himself.
This same scene magically repeats itself when Dean sees Sam for the first time. Sam, too, does not know what to do upon seeing Dean alive and thus attacks him with a knife. This time Bobby helps Dean with the fisticuffs, but it is still an act of personal violence upon the person whom, I can say with little reservation, Dean loves most in the world. In fact, Dean is not rejoicing at being out of hell because he is fearing for the state of his brother's soul. And the first thing they do when they see one another is get into a fist/knife fight.
Then comes the fight with the demonically possessed waitress. However, Dean does not slap her because she gave him bad service. In fact, before he visits personal violence upon her person she says, "I'll drag you back to Hell myself," and, "I'm going to reach down your throat and rip out your lungs." And then Dean slaps her twice.
Lastly, Dean does personal violence upon the angel Castiel. He and Bobby both shoot him, but it has been suggested to me that this is not personal violence and shouldn't be dissected here. But he also stabs Castiel with Ruby's demon killing knife. Dean doesn't just want to kill Castiel's body or insult him or bruise him; Dean wants to kill Castiel's soul. Even in the Supernatural world, that's big. Dean's not playing with Castiel. He wants him dead and forgotten.
Now I've written before that I don't like treating demons (or, now, angels) as though they are gendered by their meatsuits/vessels. The demon possessing that waitress could well be male gendered even though his body is currently female sexed. But as most of the people who inspired this meta are treating it one way, I am willing to treat this situation as one of Dean doing personal violence upon male and female bodies.
In this episode, 25% of the personal violence Dean does is upon female bodies and 75% of the violence Dean does is upon male bodies. 50% of the personal violence Dean does is upon loved ones. 25% is done upon angels, 25% is done upon demons, and 50% is done upon humans (for the purposes of my current knowledge, both Sam and Bobby are human). The only unprovoked personal violence Dean does is upon the angel Castiel who is currently inhabited a meatsuit/vessel which appears to be male sexed. Castiel, from what research I have been able to do, is also male gendered. The most frantic of the personal violence which Dean does is upon Castiel who is, to my knowledge, both male sexed and gendered.
Now I will examine the situation with the possessed waitress, which has distressed many. The waitress threatens Dean with two very real threats, "I'll drag you back to Hell myself," and, "I'm going to reach down your throat and rip out your lungs." Dean has just now returned from Hell, a place where, presumably, no one goes willingly. Even Sam, who is sociopathically calm in a later scene with the same demon, is ready to attack the waitress when she threatens to return Dean to hell.
Wondering if perhaps I was reacting violently myself to these threats, which are both gruesome and no doubt frightening to Dean, I consulted an outside source. Our conversation went as follows:
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
chasingtides: "If you were threatened with actually being dragged to hell and then having your lungs pulled out of your mouth, is hitting the person threatening you reasonable?"
una__sola: "No.
It's not nearly extreme enough."
To be quite frank, I realised I agreed with this. Really, the demon wearing this women isn't just threatening Dean's life, though she is with the second threat; she is threatening his soul. By returning to life, Dean has received a second chance. He doesn't have to go to hell and he doesn't have to become a demon. He no longer has to become what he hates and pray that someone kills him quickly. Well. Damn. That's a good deal. But this demon is threatening to take all of that away. That warrants more than a few slaps.
Also, I have slapped people (okay one guy) like that in a fight. It is one of the most ineffective maneuvers out there. This is why I only used it once. It is very wimpy and pointless. Mostly, your hand stings and maybe their cheek turns pink. This is not a drastic level of violence.
Finally, I will close with a few thoughts on violence against female bodies in media. If I am going to an action movie where the hero has a big ole machine gun and is shooting everyone, I expect women to be shot. If the hero - or villain - purposefully only kills men, then that is sexism in media. If the hero - or villain - only kills women, this too is sexism in media. If the hero - or villain - kills both men and women, that is equality.
There is real violence against women in the world. I do not doubt this. I know and love women who have survived it. I myself have survived it. But when someone hates or hurts or hits people of any and all gender, class, race, or other subdivision of humanity, it doesn't mean that they are being sexist, classist, racist, or subscribing to any other "ism" of the world. It means that they are hateful or hurtful or violent. Period. End of story.
Now, if you don't want to watch a show about a violent person, I'm not sure why you're watching TV. But that's an issue for another day.
I like Dean a lot. Probably, partially, because he also hits things.
Now, I've seen around the internet that it seems that a lot of people don't like Dean hitting things. They say that he likes to pick on women. That's he's mean to women. That he's written as a misogynist.
Well, thinks I, I am not so sure about that. I hit women, but I don't think of myself as a misogynist for a variety of reasons, but partially because I also hit men.
So, I decided to analyze exactly who Dean hits in Lazarus Rising.
If we set aside the opening montage of season three as irrelevant to this meta and focus upon Dean's acts of personal violence against others, we can look at four separate incidents of such personal violence in Lazarus Rising. The first is Dean's fist/knife fight with Bobby; the second, his fist/knife fight with Sam; the third, his slapping of the possessed waitress; and the fourth, his attack upon the angel Castiel.
Bobby, as Dean expresses in this self-same episode, is the closest thing Dean has to a father. Presumably, this works the other way (and I am taking a cue from Bobby's new drinking habit as well) and Bobby feels that Sam and Dean are the closest things he has to sons. As he said so eloquently in the finale of the third season, "Family don't end with blood, boy." And yet despite this - or perhaps because of it, for who would not be startled and afraid to see a loved one arise from the grave - the first thing he does when he sees Dean is attack him with a knife. Dean responds in kind, returning the fight with his fists. This continues until Dean has wrested the knife from Bobby and purposefully cuts himself.
This same scene magically repeats itself when Dean sees Sam for the first time. Sam, too, does not know what to do upon seeing Dean alive and thus attacks him with a knife. This time Bobby helps Dean with the fisticuffs, but it is still an act of personal violence upon the person whom, I can say with little reservation, Dean loves most in the world. In fact, Dean is not rejoicing at being out of hell because he is fearing for the state of his brother's soul. And the first thing they do when they see one another is get into a fist/knife fight.
Then comes the fight with the demonically possessed waitress. However, Dean does not slap her because she gave him bad service. In fact, before he visits personal violence upon her person she says, "I'll drag you back to Hell myself," and, "I'm going to reach down your throat and rip out your lungs." And then Dean slaps her twice.
Lastly, Dean does personal violence upon the angel Castiel. He and Bobby both shoot him, but it has been suggested to me that this is not personal violence and shouldn't be dissected here. But he also stabs Castiel with Ruby's demon killing knife. Dean doesn't just want to kill Castiel's body or insult him or bruise him; Dean wants to kill Castiel's soul. Even in the Supernatural world, that's big. Dean's not playing with Castiel. He wants him dead and forgotten.
Now I've written before that I don't like treating demons (or, now, angels) as though they are gendered by their meatsuits/vessels. The demon possessing that waitress could well be male gendered even though his body is currently female sexed. But as most of the people who inspired this meta are treating it one way, I am willing to treat this situation as one of Dean doing personal violence upon male and female bodies.
In this episode, 25% of the personal violence Dean does is upon female bodies and 75% of the violence Dean does is upon male bodies. 50% of the personal violence Dean does is upon loved ones. 25% is done upon angels, 25% is done upon demons, and 50% is done upon humans (for the purposes of my current knowledge, both Sam and Bobby are human). The only unprovoked personal violence Dean does is upon the angel Castiel who is currently inhabited a meatsuit/vessel which appears to be male sexed. Castiel, from what research I have been able to do, is also male gendered. The most frantic of the personal violence which Dean does is upon Castiel who is, to my knowledge, both male sexed and gendered.
Now I will examine the situation with the possessed waitress, which has distressed many. The waitress threatens Dean with two very real threats, "I'll drag you back to Hell myself," and, "I'm going to reach down your throat and rip out your lungs." Dean has just now returned from Hell, a place where, presumably, no one goes willingly. Even Sam, who is sociopathically calm in a later scene with the same demon, is ready to attack the waitress when she threatens to return Dean to hell.
Wondering if perhaps I was reacting violently myself to these threats, which are both gruesome and no doubt frightening to Dean, I consulted an outside source. Our conversation went as follows:
chasingtides: "If you were threatened with actually being dragged to hell and then having your lungs pulled out of your mouth, is hitting the person threatening you reasonable?"una__sola: "No.It's not nearly extreme enough."
To be quite frank, I realised I agreed with this. Really, the demon wearing this women isn't just threatening Dean's life, though she is with the second threat; she is threatening his soul. By returning to life, Dean has received a second chance. He doesn't have to go to hell and he doesn't have to become a demon. He no longer has to become what he hates and pray that someone kills him quickly. Well. Damn. That's a good deal. But this demon is threatening to take all of that away. That warrants more than a few slaps.
Also, I have slapped people (okay one guy) like that in a fight. It is one of the most ineffective maneuvers out there. This is why I only used it once. It is very wimpy and pointless. Mostly, your hand stings and maybe their cheek turns pink. This is not a drastic level of violence.
Finally, I will close with a few thoughts on violence against female bodies in media. If I am going to an action movie where the hero has a big ole machine gun and is shooting everyone, I expect women to be shot. If the hero - or villain - purposefully only kills men, then that is sexism in media. If the hero - or villain - only kills women, this too is sexism in media. If the hero - or villain - kills both men and women, that is equality.
There is real violence against women in the world. I do not doubt this. I know and love women who have survived it. I myself have survived it. But when someone hates or hurts or hits people of any and all gender, class, race, or other subdivision of humanity, it doesn't mean that they are being sexist, classist, racist, or subscribing to any other "ism" of the world. It means that they are hateful or hurtful or violent. Period. End of story.
Now, if you don't want to watch a show about a violent person, I'm not sure why you're watching TV. But that's an issue for another day.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
From:
no subject
quite frankly I think that's not the same as calling someone a bitch
Well that's you. The women's college chicks view that one different. That's where the whole discussion stems from.
Dean was saying what we all were thinking
Who's "we all"?
From:
no subject
If you have trouble with American linguistics then I think it is unfair to say, "Dean/the Show have problems with women." If these are the insults that are allowed on American air, then it is a linguistics and cultural issue and not the show's issue.
According to Wikipedia (not the most accurate source, but available), "Since the 1980s, the term "bitch" became more and more accepted and less offensive. After the word was widely used between rivals Krystle and Alexis on the drama Dynasty, it gained usage, in malicious contexts or otherwise, and is now very rarely censored on television broadcasts.
phrases.org.uk says, of son of a bitch, that the phrase has been around since the early 1600's (having earlier forms as well) and has been used by such luminaries as Shakespeare, Homer, and translators of the Old and New Testaments.
From:
no subject
Actually, I'm not. But I agree, it didn't come across right. So: "There seems to be a whole group of women's college chicks (and various other feminists) who view that one different." I'd also dare to suggest that that particular group doesn't view the term as "less offensive" just because it has been more widely used. Which seems to be the crux of this whole misogyny discussion in fandom.
From:
no subject
My point was that America-at-large seemed to decide sometime during Dynasty's reign on our airwaves that the term was less offensive than you seem to find it, that Supernatural has fairly great company in using these terms (and I'd actually love to see a discussion on how they're offensive in Shakespeare, etc), and that it is a deeply ingrained cultural issue, not one that makes Supernatural - or Dean - special as you seem to act like it is.
As a women's college "chick" - as you call yourself - why not try to change the world, instead of one television show, if it is so important to you?
From:
no subject
Say it loud. But it's funny how many fangirls in this fandom are all about throttling you when you dare to point out that your own point of view isn't all, "OMG, hot boys FTW!!" But apparently here fangirling a show seems one has to blindly worship it, otherwise a whole bunch of other fangirls is offended. If one says in the Prison Break fandom that it's misogynist, what one hears is usually, "I agree / disagree - whatever floats your boat".
why not try to change the world, instead of one television show
Change the world, one TV show at a time! Like Dynasty!
From:
no subject
Saying that Shakespeare, Homer, and the Bible are great literary company doesn't mean I worship Supernatural. It means that I think Shakespearean plays and sonnets, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, and the Bible are all great works of literature. I won't take that back. They're stunning.
If one says in the Prison Break fandom that it's misogynist, what one hears is usually, "I agree / disagree - whatever floats your boat".'
I like debating the issue. It's the best way to learn and I find it can keep people from demonising someone who disagrees with them. At the very least, even if both sides still disagree at the end of the day, you might be able to see where the other person is coming from and I think that's worlds better than simply assuming that the other person/people is/are foolish. My journal is and always has been a place for open debate. I'm not offended that you think Supernatural is misogynistic, but I think you are mistaken.
Change the world, one TV show at a time! Like Dynasty!
If that's what you want to do and you think you can actually do something about television through fandom, then go for it.
From:
no subject
Ahh, help-- when I said "here", I didn't mean your LJ, as in you. I meant many individuals included in fandom as a gathering sort of point.
It's the best way to learn and I find it can keep people from demonising someone who disagrees with them.
Totally. I'm excited we're talking in a civilized way and no wank has started yet!
I'm not offended that you think Supernatural is misogynistic, but I think you are mistaken.
I don't even think the show as a whole is. But it has its tendencies, some of which are fueled by actual characterization and the way Sam and Dean grew up... and others by the mere misconception that they'll make the show edgy and not entirely motivated by plot.
If that's what you want to do and you think you can actually do something about television through fandom, then go for it.
Hey, TPTB of Prison Break de-killed their lead actress because the fans were so pissed at them!
From:
no subject
And I guess that I feel that sometimes Supernatural the Show is far less sexist than Supernatural the Fandom. I haven't been a big fan of many of the show's females (notably Ruby), but I died a little inside when I realised that Jo and Ellen weren't returning - and I liked Bela until we got her backstory. I find that many of the show's fans bother me on a lot of levels that the show really doesn't. Between their objectification of the men on the show (not that I don't do that as well) and their objections to women (though I tend to think that Sam and Dean are too screwed up and interdependent to have real romantic relationships with the women), I do think the fandom somewhat deserves its reputation.
As I said in a comment below, I think that the show, being what it is, deserves to be treated with a loving callousness. It's stock horror where everyone dies and the more gruesomely the better. I'm not big on the bar scene in my area, so I watch Sci-Fi Channel horror movies on Saturday nights and really, if you doubt my description of the genre, check them out. I was in shock last night when two people survived House on Haunted Hill (and in my head, I decided that they died by falling into the ocean anyway). And horror, as a genre, is distinctly a product of its culture, possibly more so than other genres because it grapples with what the culture doesn't understand and fears, which changes even within generations. (Check out older and newer horror movies and the move from radiation poisoning to genetics.) It isn't surprising to me, therefore, that Dean and Sam are distinct products of our culture.
From:
no subject
OMG WORD.