chasingtides (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
chasingtides) wrote2008-05-18 08:25 am
chasingtides) wrote2008-05-18 08:25 am
Thar Be Wank
Somehow I felt the need to join into the feminist SPN wank.
Dean is a misogynist. I don't disagree here. He objectifies women, treats them as tools. Misogynist, as defined by the OED:
A. n. A person who hates, dislikes, or is prejudiced against women.
He is prejudiced against women. Damn straight he is. But, I have issues with the way people are dealing with this.
I don't have an issue with Dean calling Ruby a bitch, punching her, or otherwise insulting her. Feminism doesn't mean you like all women. Hardly. I personally have a fair few women I despise. And would call a bitch and punch. In fact, I have. Amusing story, she called me a lying whore and I punched her in the chapel at church. We had to have meetings with the priest for a couple months. The point is, despite that, I still consider myself a feminist. Ruby is a demon. Dean has been trained to hate. On top of that, Ruby has lied to him, lied to his brother (which for Dean which may be a worst offense, especially considering she led him on to believe that Dean could be saved), insulted him and his intelligence, and tried to turn his brother into the Antichrist to lead an army of demons. If she succeeded at the last, Dean might have had to kill his brother whom he sold his soul to save or dealt with the guilt of breaking his word to his father and his brother. If I were in his position, even without the slightly absurdist devotion to my brother, I would still want Ruby's head on a pike. And probably call her a dirty, lying whore. Maybe it's just me. But I don't like it when people are mean to me and lie to me.
As for bitch. To quote![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
esorlehcar
If Dean had screamed "nigger" at the demon in a black man's body at the beginning of TIomS, no one would be arguing that his racism didn't count since he only says nigger when he's talking about demons. By choosing a racial epithet, he'd have been insulting and degrading people of color as a group, not just the demon. And by choosing misogynistic epithets, he's insulting and degrading women as a group. It wouldn't matter if his "intent" wasn't to be racist in screaming nigger -- he'd still be being racist. And it doesn't matter if his intent isn't to be misogynistic when he uses misogynistic insults multiple times per episode -- he's still being misogynistic.
Oh bitch please. I'm sorry. I think "nigger" is a far, far worse slur than "bitch." Maybe I'm odd. But I, and many people I know, have embraced the term bitch. Reclaimed it even a case where that doesn't apply. I know some people have apparently had a great deal of issue with Dean's free use of the word, but I admit that it never really offended me. I've myself bitch on occasion. I've called my friends, my brother, my professors bitches. Rightly, I think they've called me bitch. Hell, Dean calls Sam bitch. It all goes around.
Lastly, just because writers are writing a misogynistic character doesn't mean they are, in fact, themselves misogynists or that the show is inherently misogynistic. Personally, I love writing characters who are extremists; they are a pleasure to explore. This doesn't mean that I agree with everything they say or do. I find it interesting and important and integral to the character, even if I would never do such a thing myself. As for the show, I think there are plenty of character (i e Sam) who are not misogynistic and there are even some women (i e Ellen) who Dean treats with respect. The fact that a misogynistic character doesn't treat a female demon with respect doesn't equate to misogyny on the part of the writers or suggest, to me, that whole show is an exercise in misogyny.
This all said, I'm headed north today. Hope I don't get propositioned by homeless dudes in the train station.
Dean is a misogynist. I don't disagree here. He objectifies women, treats them as tools. Misogynist, as defined by the OED:
A. n. A person who hates, dislikes, or is prejudiced against women.
He is prejudiced against women. Damn straight he is. But, I have issues with the way people are dealing with this.
I don't have an issue with Dean calling Ruby a bitch, punching her, or otherwise insulting her. Feminism doesn't mean you like all women. Hardly. I personally have a fair few women I despise. And would call a bitch and punch. In fact, I have. Amusing story, she called me a lying whore and I punched her in the chapel at church. We had to have meetings with the priest for a couple months. The point is, despite that, I still consider myself a feminist. Ruby is a demon. Dean has been trained to hate. On top of that, Ruby has lied to him, lied to his brother (which for Dean which may be a worst offense, especially considering she led him on to believe that Dean could be saved), insulted him and his intelligence, and tried to turn his brother into the Antichrist to lead an army of demons. If she succeeded at the last, Dean might have had to kill his brother whom he sold his soul to save or dealt with the guilt of breaking his word to his father and his brother. If I were in his position, even without the slightly absurdist devotion to my brother, I would still want Ruby's head on a pike. And probably call her a dirty, lying whore. Maybe it's just me. But I don't like it when people are mean to me and lie to me.
As for bitch. To quote
esorlehcarIf Dean had screamed "nigger" at the demon in a black man's body at the beginning of TIomS, no one would be arguing that his racism didn't count since he only says nigger when he's talking about demons. By choosing a racial epithet, he'd have been insulting and degrading people of color as a group, not just the demon. And by choosing misogynistic epithets, he's insulting and degrading women as a group. It wouldn't matter if his "intent" wasn't to be racist in screaming nigger -- he'd still be being racist. And it doesn't matter if his intent isn't to be misogynistic when he uses misogynistic insults multiple times per episode -- he's still being misogynistic.
Oh bitch please. I'm sorry. I think "nigger" is a far, far worse slur than "bitch." Maybe I'm odd. But I, and many people I know, have embraced the term bitch. Reclaimed it even a case where that doesn't apply. I know some people have apparently had a great deal of issue with Dean's free use of the word, but I admit that it never really offended me. I've myself bitch on occasion. I've called my friends, my brother, my professors bitches. Rightly, I think they've called me bitch. Hell, Dean calls Sam bitch. It all goes around.
Lastly, just because writers are writing a misogynistic character doesn't mean they are, in fact, themselves misogynists or that the show is inherently misogynistic. Personally, I love writing characters who are extremists; they are a pleasure to explore. This doesn't mean that I agree with everything they say or do. I find it interesting and important and integral to the character, even if I would never do such a thing myself. As for the show, I think there are plenty of character (i e Sam) who are not misogynistic and there are even some women (i e Ellen) who Dean treats with respect. The fact that a misogynistic character doesn't treat a female demon with respect doesn't equate to misogyny on the part of the writers or suggest, to me, that whole show is an exercise in misogyny.
This all said, I'm headed north today. Hope I don't get propositioned by homeless dudes in the train station.
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fmy
P.S. we'll talk about the whole (nigger/bitch) thing one day, it can be funny believe me.
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GiP!
The writer came up with this after watching the entire season of Firefly once and deciding that because Inara and Zoe are quiet-dignity kind of women they are being oppressed and Zoe calling Mal "sir" has nothing to do with the fact they served in the army together and he is still her commanding officer, it's because she's a black woman and he's a white man, and Kaylee lusting after Simon isn't normal behaviour for a young woman *facepalm*
There are nutjobs in every fandom who are deliberately looking for negative things. I don't see Dean as anti-women, I see Dean as anti-Demon. I also don't think he can relate at all well to women because the only experience he has of women is sleeping with them. He lost his mother at the age of 4, John didn't remarry and we see that all the hunters the boys know are male. Maybe Dean would have been different if he'd known Ellen Harvelle earlier...but Dean hasn't had a whole lot of feminine input into his life, so why should he be an expert on women now?
Re: GiP!
Thank you. For sounding sane. And reminding me that the internet is just full of stupid.