Glee

[chasingtides]

So, I made two mistakes. One, I watch another episode of Glee. (Warning: Mattress comes with unexamined domestic violence, discussion further in.)

Then I went on to make my second mistake - I tried to talk about the issues with Glee (as per what I've seen: racism, ablism, sexism, domestic violence; I have seen discussions of issues of queerness).

People seem to be using, "But it's satire!" as a way of shutting down issues with the show. I won't deny that the songs are catchy and fun, but I am having a lot of trouble seeing how the issues I'm having are satire on the show.

Will pins his wife to the wall, gripping her wrist so hard that we can see the strain in his hand, even after she tells him he's scaring her and asking him to get away. Then, while she seems near tears, he lifts up her shirt and tears the baby belly off her and starts screaming. (FYI, I think she's right that the club is an unhealthy obsession for him - example: writing the check for the yearbook ad when they obviously didn't have the money for it. Also using it as a cover for emotional cheating.) I wouldn't have as much of a problem, except we are supposed to see him as the put-upon victim.

Quinn says Puck got her drunk the night he got her pregnant - but somehow she's the cheating lying slut? And Terri's clearly scared of Will and got some mental issues, but she's the shrewish angry wife? And what's with the minority kids getting less screen time and I won't even touch the ablism?

Can someone please explain how this is satire and not really offensive crap?

[In other news: I'm apparently working extra hours and six days a week until Christmas. Oh god, I'm going to die.]

Comments

[yakbites.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. Either the satire is so delicate and nuanced that I just don't get it (which I doubt) or this show has some real problems.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, the domestic violence seen bothers me more than anything else.

Especially since I was totally shut down by a Gleek who told me it wasn't domestic violence and I was blowing things out of proportion. (She's clearly terrified - and she's been scared to tell her husband the truth for fear of what will happen - and he threw something at her head and pinning her wrist above her head. If that isn't domestic violence, I don't know what is.)

[amory-vain.livejournal.com]

I keep asking the same questions. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who was totally freaked out by Will's attacking Terri in Mattresses. My roommates were like "What, he's angry! And she's a lying bitch!"

I'm not kidding. "He's angry" is apparently now an excuse to behave abusively?

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

So... domestic abuse only happens when the perpetrator is calm and dispassionate?

Dumbasses.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Apparently domestic abuse is the woman's fault if she ever lied to her husband because she was scared or mentally ill.

[sgrio.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wasn't too enthusiastic about Glee to start with, and after this episode I just don't care anymore. I don't see why I should give a shit about any of the characters. If I wanted to watch satirical comedy about blithering idiots, I'd watch Clueless.

[oregano42.livejournal.com]

Stopped watching Glee pretty much for similar reasons- before it even got to anything as graphic as the scene you've described.
As far as I can tell, it's supposed to be satire _because_ he's being portrayed as the victim. Or, at least, that's the general way the first few episodes were going. The writers seem to take plotlines that would be considered, by most, to be really offensive and slightly twist them- and then call it satire. It just was not well done. Also, it's incredibly depressing.

They've pretty much either got to go full Ianucci (which would never be allowed on US network TV primetime) or admit that adding cover songs to a technically nice roll of film makes people A-okay with just about anything (like The Producers?).

[foldingstar.livejournal.com]

I am afraid I cannot give my opinion yet coz it has not been on over here. However, the first episode is next week. I will get back to you....mind you, the topic might be exhausted by then.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

Apparently domestic abuse is the woman's fault if she ever lied to her husband because she was scared or mentally ill.

(Spoilers, obviously.)

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

Satire pokes fun at people in power. Poking at marginalized people is the exact opposite.

Television fail.

[onthetide.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest, I never really noticed the racial stuff on Glee until recently. But this week's episode? Mercedes is gonna have a badass solo and then she gives it up to Rachel? Oh HELL no.

I think Sue's character is satire, and she's the reason I watch the show. But the rest of it? Feels genuine to me and I might not be watching anymore after Shue's little outburst.

[originalpuck.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem with Sue is that even when she's portrayed as 'sympathetic,' it's done in an offensive way. Not to mention her tv segment and things. Most of her scenes are done in a very borderline way, since a lot of the things that she says and does that are supposed to be 'over the top' are done on a regular basis by people. I just have a hard time seeing some of what she does as the 'over the top' satire that it's supposed to be.

Too many people really do think fat people should stay at home, which results in serious harassment. Slut shaming is a huge problem, and pregnant teens really are treated horrifically, etc.

[originalpuck.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this. I've had to explain it to far too many people, and still I was accused of harshing their squee. The thing about Quinn and Puck bothered me so much that after that episode I stopped watching it, but my wife still tunes in. The domestic violence scene actually gave me a panic attack -- too damn real. The aftermath of that made me a little sick, though I've seen some good places (like this) addressing it.

But to see so many people defending those things, people who've gone through the same shitty instances refusing to see it for what it is --- gah. Rage.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I'm just going to curl up under my blanket later because, really, the fact that people are defending it and telling me that my personal experiences have blinded me to Will's jusitfications - no. Just... no.

Part 1

[lfg1986.livejournal.com]

Okay, here goes nothing.

I'm clearly in the minority here, and I do NOT want to argue, so I'm not gonna comment back after this comment (though I do promise to *read* whatever response you chose to give), but I'm gonna have to...not necessarily disagree, but maybe put things in another way. Terri has been abusing Will FROM THE PILOT. Not physically, but definitely mentally/emotionally. She's the most unsympathetic character in the entire show and I've yet to see her do ONE redeeming thing for the entirety it's been on. Every seemingly "nice" gesture she makes is laced with selfish motivations and fear of getting caught. She knew exactly what she was doing, and the only reason she kept up the lie was because she was selfish and didn't want him to leave (which quite frankly, he has just cause to do, she's a HORRIBLE wife/person regardless of the baby issue). The line that got me that NO ONE seems to even notice is her "The only reason this marriage works is because you don't feel good about yourself." Yeah, THAT'S healthy and totally okay for her to say, right? Because she's a woman and therefore incapable of making her own decisions and acting like a mature grown-up. She's just a victim of his obsession, right?

That's NOT to say that physical abuse is okay, because it's not, and I do agree that the wrist grab was a bit much, but I really do not see that as "abuse". I see it as a snap reaction that he probably regretted afterward. If he was going to hit her, he would have. There's been ZERO evidence save for that one scene that he would ever be physically violent; in fact he's refrained on several occasions from hitting Sue, and she borders on being the most obnoxious one and probably most deserving of a good sucker-punch with the exception of Terri. I think Will was totally justified in his reaction, especially because when he first went in to the kitchen, he calmly asked Terri to tell him the truth, and she refused, trying to twist it around on him for not trusting her when in fact he was RIGHT. I'd be mighty angry, too, and yeah, I'd probably throw the pad, but that doesn't mean I'd HIT her or anything else. He threw it behind her, not AT her, anyway. I've seen the scene many times now, and I understand it's intense and can be upsetting to some, but I really do NOT think it's indicative that he is physically abusive. He was blinded by anger, and I can't blame him one bit after all that she did to him for MONTHS.

Part 2

[lfg1986.livejournal.com]

I've read a lot of your posts that deal with things of this nature, and quite frankly most of the time I don't comment because I don't want to get into it. But many times I feel like you're really too close to the issue and it clouds your ability to see things in an objective way. We all have our own issues that we are like that about. You do make many valid points, and the whole minority thing bothers me, too. And just to briefly address the Puck/Quinn thing, I don't blame Quinn sleeping with Puck and for getting pregnant (although cheating is NOT cool, but it takes two to tango and all that), but her complete bitch act toward Finn about everything afteward just makes her unlikable. Not only did she willingly lie to him about it being his baby, then she REPEATEDLY made him feel guilty for not having a job and not paying for the doctor bills when it's NOT HIS BABY and she KNOWS that. Sorry, but THAT is inexcusable, imo.

But anyway, I decided a while ago that this show is not something that is supposed to be taken seriously it's fun and silly and HIGHLY unrealistic (speaking as someone who spendt years in school choirs, there's NO WAY that they could pull off half of what they do on this show in real life), but it's entertaining anyway, or at least it is to me. YMMV. But you also have to consider that all 13 episodes were written and filmed before the show even aired (except the pilot), where most shows film a few and then it begins to air, and if there's a major problem with a plot, they have time to tweak it before it gets too far into the season. So this show was at a disadvantage here, and I've already seen interviews with some of the creators/writers who have acknowledged some of the show's major flaws and said they'd be working on fixing them in the back 9 episodes. Yes, many of the stereotypes can be annoying and borderline offensive, but I'm not going to condemn the show this early on because it hasn't had the proper opportunity to incorporate changes based on people's criticisms yet. If the season ends and not much has changed, THEN I might have to rethink my opinion. But right now, I love the music and many of the characters, and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt that the rest of the season is going to be better story-wise now that there's been a chance for audience reaction.

Sorry for the rant, just really needed to get that out.

Re: Part 1

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

To quote smallcaps above: Does it somehow only count if she winds up with a black eye?

Domestic abuse is defined thusly:

Domestic violence constitutes the willful intimidation, assault, battery, sexual assault or other abusive behavior perpetrated by one family member, household member, or intimate partner against another.

By throwing the belly at her, backing her against the wall, demanding she remove her clothing, pinning her wrist, and giving her no personal space while yelling at her (and then forcibly removing the belly) he is, at the very least, willfully intimidating her and I would definitely say assaulting her. (Imagine, for a moment, a guy does that your best friend at a party - would you haul him off her or not?)

Hitting is not the only form of abuse or violence out there. Throwing things is one. Threatening pets is another. Threatening suicide if your partner doesn't do what you want is another. Intimidation is a common form. Suggesting that hitting is the only form of domestic abuse (or the only valid form) invalidates many life experiences (and perpetuates the victim blaming of "if you were only a better partner, they wouldn't smash things/kick the dog/humiliate you in front of your family/need to scream at you/etc").

Just because we haven't seen a pattern doesn't mean that it wasn't domestic violence/abuse or that it wasn't deeply, deeply wrong. Also, given the statistics on hysterical pregnancy and previous abuse *and* Terri's irrational behavior, I wouldn't be surprised if she had abuse in her past.

Just because someone is obnoxious/rude/lies does not give us an excuse to assault, intimidate or, yes, even hit them, especially if we are in a domestic situation with that person. And a willingness to cross that line - even once - is a sign of a greater problem.

I come from a community where domestic abuse has, historically and in living memory, been a serious problem and women didn't have a lot of options. One thing the nuns told us, over and over, was that the minute a man crossed that line - the line of laying a hand on us - was the minute that we should leave him and never look back. If he is willing to do it once, even if he's drunk or angry or high or whatever, means that he might be willing to do it again. And that's not a risk anyone should ever take.

[mechanicaljewel.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't watch it, so going by your description I can think of three things:

1) Satire is supposed to foment discussion on the issues raised, so if that it the case, the fandom is doing it wrong.

2) It's not satire, but more like Mad Men, which plays Unfortunate Truths straight so that we can see how unfortunate and true they are, in which case the fandom is still doing it wrong.

3) The show writers fail at life.

[kira-bouviea.livejournal.com]

Honestly I stopped watching Glee about five or six episodes into it. The songs are catchy (and I listen to them on my way to class) but they're not enough to actually watch the show. A friend who still watches the show buys the songs and makes a CD of the ones she thinks I'll like.

The thing is, the episodes that I did watch, seemed kind of off to me, and at the time I couldn't figure out quite why. I also couldn't seem to quite feel any pity for the main characters, and the ones I wanted more back story on, didn't get any screen time really. So, I didn't really see the point in watching it anymore.

It was only after I stopped watching that I started hearing things. Sorry I can't be any more help. I was kind of hoping that the show would get better as it progressed in the season, but I'm guessing that's a big fat no?

As for satire, maybe the show's trying for that angle, but they just aren't quite hiting it?

I almost hate to ask but, from what you've seen of the show what are they doing with Kurt and Sue's characters?

[sgrio.livejournal.com]

Kurt has a crush on Finn and he tries to humiliate Rachel (yay! Sneaky vindictive gays!) by giving her a "slutty" "makeover" and pushing her into Finn's arms.

Sue... IDK. She's still more or less the same; it's just not as funny anymore, now that EVERYONE is crazy.

[kira-bouviea.livejournal.com]

Now, I've gone and read all the comments to this post as well as the one you linked to and I do have a few comments. Beware this is having not watched the scene your referencing. And I doubt I'll ever be watching that scene if I can help it.

Having said that.

From what I can tell, and from what I've read. Some members of Glee fandom are doing it wrong. Abuse of ANY form is wrong. It's been a while since I've watched Glee, but I remember feeling vaugly nauseated with the Will/Emma story line. If Will had waited until after Terri had revealed her fake pregnancy, or if Will and Emma had just stayed friends I would have been fine with it, but I do agree with you, emotional relationships like the one they had been showing between Will and Emma constitute as cheating. Dispite the fact that when I watched the show I did quite like Emma, that aspect of her character was always a little off putting. As well as the fact that she was leading the football coach on. The fact that she actually agreed to marry him while she still clearly had feelings for Will pissed me off.

Cheating is a really touchy subject for me, so sorry if I seemed a little focused on it. But I grew up watching the negative effects of both cheating and emotional abuse, and from what I saw of Glee and what I've heard here and other places, the show is just not handling it right. It's probably a damn good thing that I stopped watching when I did.

I think, maybe you ought to give up this show as a lost cause, if it keeps going in this direction, you'll only get more upset.

[optimus-life.livejournal.com]

I'll be staying far away from that show, thanks for a head's up.
The SNL skit last weekend slamming Tiger Woods had me keyed up for two days. 0-0 the "it's not x" astounds me. People just don't want to see and go to great lengths to try and shut people up.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I'm... not happy. Between the people saying that she deserved it/it's totally understandable why he abused her and why are you making a big deal about it? about the Glee scene and... the rest of my life this week, I'm not happy. I do not like this culture that ignores abuse.

[khyros.livejournal.com]

2) It's not satire, but more like Mad Men, which plays Unfortunate Truths straight so that we can see how unfortunate and true they are, in which case the fandom is still doing it wrong.

Thank you. I haven't really felt like the show has been satire and I haven't really been able to articulate what it is. As originalpuck said, some of the behavior is so borderline that it's not easily classified as satire, though it's more palatable to think that it is.

As a fan of showtunes and former choreographer of my broadway group, I have wanted to like the show, a whole lot, but have found myself watching it more like a train wreck than anything else, because it has never felt like satire. It has felt like a show about morally ugly people doing hateful things.

That being said, the scene in the kitchen which you're calling abuse, yes, that was an isolated instance of abuse. I think that between lfg1986 and lotus_bright, a capable job has been done of explaining other perspectives on the situation, but, I'm quite in lfg1986's camp on the characters' motivation.

Given the raw amount of hateful behavior that goes on in the show, an isolated relatively tame moment of physical violence is what you find so upsetting?

I don't know that we're supposed to buy Will as the put-upon good guy hero. Let's say it's not satire, but a show about ugly people who do ugly and hateful things, but occasionally manage to produce something beautiful. (Giving the show a little more credit under mechanicaljewel's category 2, than it maybe deserves). In that scene, we see overtly and unambiguously that there's a side of Will, whose largely been acting the role of good guy hero, that's just as ugly as anyone else on the show.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

I think I've posted here in my journal before about issues with Glee - particularly in Wheels, where I found the blatant ablism to be deeply bothersome.

As for your belief that the incident with Terri is a "relatively tame moment of physical violence," several people have mentioned being triggered by it. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the term, but here is a definition for you:

# Intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues (triggers) that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event, including anniversaries of the trauma; and/or
# Physiological reactivity upon exposure to internal or external cues (triggers) that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event

By sheer definition for us, then, it was not tame (and it wasn't). Even an isolated incident of abuse shouldn't be showered with rallying cries of "She deserved it" and "His reaction was totally understandable." Even an isolated incident of abuse is a sign of a greater problem.

(Also, I think there are many ugly sides to Will, not just this one. I don't find him an attractive or moral character at all, really. Also - do Terri and Will sleep in separate beds or something that this is the first he noticed that she's wearing a pillow belly?)